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I mean it...why is it an issue on so many Forums?
Who cares if some people have bind faith, have seen God or have not seen God?
I say believe in what you have seen or experienced.
Sure, be curious that others say they have seen God, UFOs, ghosts....be open..
recognize you personally have not experienced it...be polite that others have...and
wait...maybe you will see a Leprachaun...or maybe you won't...whatever.
I haven't seen a Leprachaun...but camping in England for 3 days...whoa...I REALLY
felt them in the dewy wee hours!!!! Uncanny. Whew.
Now I understand all the references...didn't until then.
Be open, curious...never shut down possibilities, I say. No need for hostile debates or name calling.
Be respectfully curious.
To me that is a sign of an advanced soul.
I mean it...why is it an issue on so many Forums?
Who cares if some people have bind faith, have seen God or have not seen God?
I say believe in what you have seen or experienced.
Sure, be curious that others say they have seen God, UFOs, ghosts....be open..
recognize you personally have not experienced it...be polite that others have...and
wait...maybe you will see a Leprachaun...or maybe you won't...whatever.
I haven't seen a Leprachaun...but camping in England for 3 days...whoa...I REALLY
felt them in the dewy wee hours!!!! Uncanny. Whew.
Now I understand all the references...didn't until then.
Be open, curious...never shut down possibilities, I say. No need for hostile debates or name calling.
Be respectfully curious.
To me that is a sign of an advanced soul.
I think there are two issues here that make the discussion important.
One, a vast majority of those who hold theistic beliefs are interested in shaping not just themselves, but the world based on those beliefs. It is all well and good for me to ignore religious claims when they have no bearing on me. But why should religion go unquestioned when it imposes on non-practitioners?
Two, I wanted to point out that even in this seemingly tolerant statement, you are being tremendously biased and one sided. You are asking those of us whose experience tells us that there is most likely no God to treat our own experience with skepticism (we might not have experienced the "real" thing) while assuming that the believer's claims are credible. Do you refrain from stating your views as reality because it is quite possible that all of your subjective experiences are just you mind playing tricks on you? You don't come across as someone who weighs the possibility that your experiences have led you to false conclusions very heavily. Why should us non-theists discount our own experience in favor of yours? Are you as open to the possibility that your mind has been playing tricks on you as you want us to be that you have experienced something real?
If someone has not experienced God...I see no reason to believe in One.
Seeing is believing.
I do think if someone says they have seen a UfO...same thing as someone
saying they have seen God...I say, say to them "Ok, that's nice, I haven't so
I will wait til I do ... or not."
Believe in your own experience.
Now if what they have seen...love, God, an alien, has changed that person for the better...
I would think, " Cool, interesting." And that's about it.
Or maybe.."if I were supposed to feel or see that...I guess I would have...it obviously was meant for them."
However, I wouldn't have enough interest to attack them or doubt them...I bet they
haven't had some experiences I have had either.
Btw, No Capo, some people count how many times someone uses an "I" sentence.
I notice how many times someone points a finger and says "You" sentences.
You kinda broke the meter.
If someone has not experienced God...I see no reason to believe in One.
Seeing is believing.
I do think if someone says they have seen a UfO...same thing as someone
saying they have seen God...I say, say to them "Ok, that's nice, I haven't so
I will wait til I do ... or not."
Believe in your own experience.
Now if what they have seen...love, God, an alien, has changed that person for the better...
I would think, " Cool, interesting." And that's about it.
Or maybe.."if I were supposed to feel or see that...I guess I would have...it obviously was meant for them."
However, I wouldn't have enough interest to attack them or doubt them...I bet they
haven't had some experiences I have had either.
Btw, No Capo, some people count how many times someone uses an "I" sentence.
I notice how many times someone points a finger and says "You" sentences.
You kinda broke the meter.
You completely missed Capo's first point. If religious people would keep their beliefs to themselves, not attempt to affect public policy, not try to teach all children that why they believe is true, and quit flying planes into buildings, I doubt that many atheists would have a problem with them, especially if it makes them less violent.
You completely missed Capo's first point. If religious people would keep their beliefs to themselves, not attempt to affect public policy, not try to teach all children that why they believe is true, and quit flying planes into buildings, I doubt that many atheists would have a problem with them, especially if it makes them less violent.
Poor logic.
Don't people use their personal influences to shape their opinions on various topics? So what if that influence is their education, their culture, their parents, or their spiritual beliefs?
Don't all parents teach their children whatever it is they believe? About all manner of topics? Nature, history, politics, health, etc. Why should spiritual beliefs be any different? Aren't atheists going to teach atheism to their children?
The things you noted above are things all people do regardless of spiritual path (or lack thereof).
Don't people use their personal influences to shape their opinions on various topics? So what if that influence is their education, their culture, their parents, or their spiritual beliefs?
Don't all parents teach their children whatever it is they believe? About all manner of topics? Nature, history, politics, health, etc. Why should spiritual beliefs be any different? Aren't atheists going to teach atheism to their children?
The things you noted above are things all people do regardless of spiritual path (or lack thereof).
As a matter of fact, no, I didn't teach atheism to my children. I taught them to think for themselves, and to be skeptical about everything they are told.
Also, I stated, "not try to teach all children that why they believe is true,", not just their's. Would you want me forcing your children to take a class on atheism? Capo made a very good point that was completely missed by Hepburn, as one of the reasons why atheists need proof for God, when people make such proclamations.
I mean it...why is it an issue on so many Forums?
Who cares if some people have bind faith, have seen God or have not seen God?
I say believe in what you have seen or experienced.
Sure, be curious that others say they have seen God, UFOs, ghosts....be open..
recognize you personally have not experienced it...be polite that others have...and
wait...maybe you will see a Leprachaun...or maybe you won't...whatever.
I haven't seen a Leprachaun...but camping in England for 3 days...whoa...I REALLY
felt them in the dewy wee hours!!!! Uncanny. Whew.
Now I understand all the references...didn't until then.
Be open, curious...never shut down possibilities, I say. No need for hostile debates or name calling.
Be respectfully curious.
To me that is a sign of an advanced soul.
Eh...I'd add to that, that I think it would be morally wrong to believe you.
I like what I've read about your religion...but you've just added something onto it I don't like: You're not thankful to everyone who doesn't believe you, for not believing you.
I think it's respectful to you not to trust you, when we see no reason to believe your beliefs, or your experiences.
If we're rude to you about stating that mistrust, that's unfortunate, and you do not deserve that. Your usually nice to us atheists. You deserve niceness back.
As a matter of fact, no, I didn't teach atheism to my children. I taught them to think for themselves, and to be skeptical about everything they are told.
Also, I stated, "not try to teach all children that why they believe is true,", not just their's. Would you want me forcing your children to take a class on atheism? Capo made a very good point that was completely missed by Hepburn, as one of the reasons why atheists need proof for God, when people make such proclamations.
Precisely! I have no problem with people believing what they want, but your belief should be about your own life and behavior. There is enough diversity that when dealing with the common good we need to approach it from a secular basis rooted in our shared humanity. When dealing with issues that affect my life and the wellbeing of my family, it seems only right that claims should be evidenced. If you tell me that my child should not learn specific areas of science, or someone should be socially and legally discriminated against for his or her sexual orientation because God told you so, or because aliens or leprechauns or fairies said so, I think that demanding evidence for these claims is reasonable. If I am not being asked to order my life to suit someone else's religious convictions, I don't really care what they believe.
If someone has not experienced God...I see no reason to believe in One.
Seeing is believing.
Likewise, if someone has not experienced the realization that the God they cling to is not in fact there, I would not expect them to have the same understanding of the pervasive nature of God belief.
I do agree with you, you have to believe your own experience. I would temper that with reason and rational analysis, since the unreliability of our gut perception and sensory experience is easily demonstrable. But my experience has led me to the exact opposite conclusion yours has led you to. I am happy for you if it works for you, but I no more believe in the truth of your experience than you believe in the truth of mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
Btw, No Capo, some people count how many times someone uses an "I" sentence.
I notice how many times someone points a finger and says "You" sentences.
You kinda broke the meter.
Well, did you understand the point? Can you see how you are asking of me, a non-theist, something that you appear unwilling to give? Your experience leads to you to believe there is a god, mine to believe that hose who believe in gods are fooling themselves. Are you as open to the possibility that you are fooling yourself as you want me to be to the idea that your experiences are real and point to the truth of a god that I just have not yet experienced?
-NoCapo
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