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Old 11-17-2013, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,195 posts, read 9,082,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Does a husband have scientific evidences to believe his wife loves him? No. Is that a blind faith? No. He has evidences, but not scientific ones. You can't be human just believing in what can be tested scientifically.
You can get far with science plus math and logic (the latter two being more branches of philosophy than of science, yet with a strong observable detailed and predictive correspondence with what we know of nature).

My faith in my wife is based on a deep knowledge of her character and personality, her history, and her behavior. It is valid to predict future behavior based on past experience and a knowledge of what underpins that past behavior ("past is prologue"). With enough data, one can predict (un)faithfulness with a high degree of confidence / probability.

So there is nothing mysterious or ineffable (or, alas, infallible) about anyone's confidence in their spouse, it is simply logic applied to knowledge and experience -- hopefully the latter as objectively assessed as possible. It is not belief without evidence. It is belief WITH evidence. This does not necessarily mean that it is 100% certain -- degrees of certainty are a separate issue. No, the evidence is not "scientific" in the sense that it's part of a reproducible controlled experiment but it is evidence that can form a testable hypothesis ("my wife is likely to remain faithful to me under any likely foreseen circumstance").

We have on the other hand zero knowledge of god. He can't be seen, touched, heard, smelled or tasted. He is 100% hearsay and nothing written in an ancient book can change that. There is no way to experience something that can't enter your nervous system via the five senses. That's not to say we don't have a rich thought life and have subjective personal experiences of transcendence, etc. But this is not reliable data, particularly regarding something we have a natural tendency to very much want to believe, and are in fact wired to believe because of agency inference and a strong need to explain even before all the facts to construct an explanation are available to us.
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Old 11-17-2013, 02:32 PM
 
258 posts, read 182,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
If there is no God, we are just peaces of particles. In this case, killing is not wrong in any case, killing is just changing the state of particles.
In other words, if there was no God you wouldn't think killing somebody was wrong?
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Old 11-17-2013, 02:53 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,959,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Hi all atheists, what answer would you give to the following questions?

1- Why is there something rather than nothing (nothing being the non-existence of anything at all)?

2-If there is no God, is there good and evil, also called moral values? (No, there isn't) How could you come to the conclusion that helping is good and killing is bad?

3- If you believe that God is just a human idea and doesn't exist, than you have to consider that the moral values are also just human ideas and are not true in reality. If that is so, being you someone who was taught about the moral values since your childhood, how could you believe in your perspective of reality, once your own mind was built based in something that isn't actually true (moral values) by your own perspective?

Thanks!
You didn't come to ask questions for your enlightenment or edification, you asked them to antagonize. (There is a term for that but I won't say it due to the TOC)

Personally I'm surprised the thread hasn't been closed.
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Old 11-17-2013, 03:13 PM
 
781 posts, read 594,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Hi all atheists, what answer would you give to the following questions?

1- Why is there something rather than nothing (nothing being the non-existence of anything at all)?

2-If there is no God, is there good and evil, also called moral values? (No, there isn't) How could you come to the conclusion that helping is good and killing is bad?

3- If you believe that God is just a human idea and doesn't exist, than you have to consider that the moral values are also just human ideas and are not true in reality. If that is so, being you someone who was taught about the moral values since your childhood, how could you believe in your perspective of reality, once your own mind was built based in something that isn't actually true (moral values) by your own perspective?

Thanks!
1. There is no why to this. Existence simply is. It is an axiomatic concept. There is nothing of reality that is more fundamental that leads to, or is antecedent to existence. There is no need to explain it. Nor is there even any possibility of explaining it. Again, it just is.
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:08 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,740,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
First, yes most historians believe Jesus existed. I can cite Martin Hengel just to give an example.
If God does not exist, we are just groups of particles, nothing else. Killing in this case would be just changing the state of matter.
Yes, Christianity helped to create science, as John Lennox says.
Atheism isn't something new, as most people think, but it's actually very old. At the time of Aristotle, about 350 b.C., there were phylosophers who were atheists. We don't usually hear about them because they were not important at all.
And to moral values, read The Abolition of the Man, by C. S. Lewis. It is a short fantastic book from the legendary scholar of Oxford entirely about the origin of moral values.
1. The intelligentsia doesn't care who says it, its about what they say. Most historians that believe choose to believe. The evidence for Jesus is very few: a Jesus-movement (there was an Apollo, Mythrism movements, etc). Gospels written much after the fact and contradicting each other or showing clear additions and forgeries. A Christian 200 years later quoting a Jewish historian who wrote about 100 years later. Etc Etc. The evidence is scarce.
2. Gold is just a group of particles, so to you, Gold is the same as Clay? Snow-flakes are the same as hot springs? Diamonds are the same as Graphite?
3. Science had its beginning in Greek Philosophy movements, not any religion that happened to be around trying to collect money from people, if anything Olympianism helped to create science then.
4. We don't usually hear about them because they are not important at all? Do you notice how ridiculous that sounds? The Egyptians didn't hear about Jesus because he wasn't important at all?
The reason we don't hear about them is because people didn't bother to force/make others hear and be aware of them. There wasn't too much emotional attachment and desperation related to making others hear about Atheism and ancient Atheist philosophers. Plus, Atheism existed much earlier even in ancient Hinduism, where people were protesting the lies, illogic, and power-hunger of the religious.
7. Lewis was a Christian apologist and working not to find truth but to confirm his believes. The origin of moral values starts with the origin of aesthetic values and other human values... everything a human does is human. We have no excuses. If you would elaborate on his ideas that would be great. Morals don't come from Greek gods, nor Jewish ones.
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
269 posts, read 168,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Does a husband have scientific evidences to believe his wife loves him? No.

Is that a blind faith? No. He has evidences, but not scientific ones. You can't be human just believing in that can be tested scientificly.
and at the same time you don't have scientific evidence that a stranger means harm to your 5 year old child when they are asking your child if they want to see a puppy in their car. you can't be human and not be skeptical...

that being said, why does belief in unverifiable claims matter to someone?
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
40,927 posts, read 18,566,118 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Does a husband have scientific evidences to believe his wife loves him? No. Is that a blind faith? No. He has evidences, but not scientific ones. You can't be human just believing in what can be tested scientificly.
The dynamics of human affection have no bearing on cosmic origins and operations.
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
269 posts, read 168,049 times
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
The dynamics of human affection have no bearing on cosmic origins and operations.
man....if i could give you more rep points!!!

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Old 11-17-2013, 07:36 PM
 
16,093 posts, read 17,892,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
First, yes most historians believe Jesus existed. I can cite Martin Hengel just to give an example.
If God does not exist, we are just groups of particles, nothing else. Killing in this case would be just changing the state of matter.
We are just groups of particles regardless of whether or not god exists, but on the killing part, I find it interesting that when placed in a moral dilemma, people choose without thinking.

I just was listening to a program on NPR today which talked about studying people's reactions to the train problem.

Scenario 1:
You are standing near some train tracks and there are 5 men working on the tracks. You can see and hear a train coming, but the men cannot see it or hear it. There is a lever near you and if you push the lever, the train will go onto a siding where a single man is standing and will be killed. Do you push the lever saving 5 men and killing one. Almost every person says they would pull the lever.

Scenario 2:
You are standing on a bridge looking down at some train tracks and the same 5 men are working on the tracks. There is an obese man standing near you also looking down. You realize that you can save the 5 men by pushing the obese man onto the tracks killing him. Do you push the man? Almost every person says no they would not push the man.

The analysis of the math is the same in both cases. You are saving 5 men and killing one, but in the second case, you actively push someone to their death and most people cannot do this.

The scientist who studied this did brain scans and had people answer these scenarios and then analyzed the scans. Two different areas of the brain were active in the two scenarios. Of course, this does not explain why the answers are different, but it shows that there is some difference in our brains when we analyze these kinds of dilemmas.

I doubt very much if our answers have anything to do with God. They seem to have more to do with how our brains work.

Here's a link to the princeton study:

https://www.princeton.edu/pr/news/01/q3/0914-brain.htm

There are other variants of this dilemma here:
Trolley problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:15 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,280,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project agrees with me.
I do not think "Someone more important than me, in my opinion, agrees with me" is a valid support for any argument you want to simply make up and trot out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
First, yes most historians believe Jesus existed. I can cite Martin Hengel just to give an example.
One historian is not "most". The word "most" is a strong statistical statement. To substantiate its use you would do better to tell us how many people are historians in the world, how many of them agree with your assertion, how you evaluated this position in them, and how you are defining "most".

Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Yes, Christianity helped to create science, as John Lennox says.
Another "Someone relatively important says it therefore it must be true" argument then? Actually Lennox is just as wrong as you. Just because people who did X were Christians that in no way substantiates the claim that Christiantiy helped do X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
2- If there is no God, there is no objective moral values and duties
True. There is no reason whatsoever to think there are objective moral values. But that does not negate the importance of morality to people and to society. Nor does it negate the sources that we do use to construct it.
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