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Old 11-19-2013, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,089,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Agreed. But if God exists, killing is really wrong. You can't say the same with atheism.
Eh? Not following you, on multiple levels:

1) If god exists, and god frequently orders killing, as he does in the OT (blessed he he who dashes your children on the rocks, etc) and even in the NT, threatens people with unending torture for the slightest failure to measure up to his requirements (aka: Hell), caused Ananias and Saphirra to drop dead on the spot, caused Herod to be eaten alive by worms, then killing is not really wrong and life isn't really sacred. It may be a privilege reserved for god himself and those he delegates to, but it's clearly not wrong.

2) If god doesn't exist, then morality arises from our interactions and agreements with others, and no society of any import and durability on this earth has ever allowed its citizens to murder each other. Simply because to do so would cause those societies to collapse. That is not in society's rational self-interest.

3) If god doesn't exist, then Christians who think he exists have values, moral convictions, ethics and principles that come from other sources, regardless of the backstory for those things that they choose to believe. Christians for whatever reasons don't want to own their own convictions. I get that. But imagining that they emanate from an external source doesn't change actual reality.

What you are fixated on is that "without god, anything goes". What you don't realize is that in theory, anything goes, period -- but in practice, many things are counterproductive and thus society prohibits them in the interest of the greater good. That prohibition (or, for the matter, the encouragement of positive behaviors) is no less valid because it's not issued from on high. In fact, it's [i]more[/] valid because things should be done because we choose to do right, not because we ought to.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh
1,650 posts, read 3,010,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Agreed. But if God exists, killing is really wrong. You can't say the same with atheism.
Killing is wrong because there is a god?

Eating meat is wrong? Abortion is wrong? War is wrong? Killing in self-defense is wrong? Capital punishment is wrong? AND...all true believers in GOD agree on all of these?

What good is an an absolute standard from a god if said god cannot/will clearly communicate it and if true believers can't determine what it is?
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Old 11-19-2013, 12:06 PM
 
14,253 posts, read 15,339,238 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Agreed. But if God exists, killing is really wrong. You can't say the same with atheism.
So presumably if you ever lose your faith then you will become a serial killer

Have you ever sat back and thought about how incredibly stupid your comment is.
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Old 11-19-2013, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
269 posts, read 168,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
So presumably if you ever lose your faith then you will become a serial killer

Have you ever sat back and thought about how incredibly stupid your comment is.
i am just betting on him responding with complete confidence that he will never loose faith...as if that would justify his illogical argument.

wow, just wow.
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Old 11-19-2013, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Chicago
3,391 posts, read 3,741,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
1-There is no way to proof or get any good evidence that this quantum fluctuations created our world. You can say it is possible. But it really seems to me a hard work to not believe in God.
2- Read The Abolition of Man, by C. S. Lewis. Quick and brilliant analysis on that topic. One of the best non-fictional books from the 20th century.
3- I agree that atheists can be good. No doubts about that. But you can never get moral values with atheism. Human beings never did. What standard of moral values are in an universe of just particles?
1) Quantum fluctuations are real. There is no more doubt they exist than there is that the earth revolves around the sun. Frankly, if you find a universe brought into being by quantum mechanics less plausible that a universe commanded into existence by s supreme being with magical powers, I don't know how to help you.

2) Don't throw a book at me unless you can provide at least a sketch of the argument it puts forward. You're not giving me anything here.

3) I didn't say we get moral values from atheism. I said we get moral values from the claims we make on each other, from the need we have to live in relative harmony and cooperate as social animals. Look, I don't need a book to tell me not to cheat, abuse or harm people. I don't do it because I know other people are just as real as I am, and I have empathy for them. The understanding that other people are just as real as you is all you really need to be a moral person.
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Old 11-19-2013, 04:05 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,969,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Hi all atheists, what answer would you give to the following questions?
Hi Mr. theist, part of being free to ask questions, is that you also have to answer questions.

Are your questions for your personal edification, which would tell me you question your own beliefs, or as I suspect, are you asking solely to demonstrate your antigonism toward those with different beliefs?

Or will you ignore this question, and you did when I previously asked it. Come on, good theists don't shy from the truth and difficult questions, now do they, or do they?
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Old 11-19-2013, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,697 posts, read 23,676,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Agreed. But if God exists, killing is really wrong. You can't say the same with atheism.
Why can't you? I don't think any atheist here would tell you that killing is any more "right" than any theist. And tell me please, how do you justify all the many, many theists over the centuries who have killed in God's name? They all claimed their killing was really right.

Theists kill in the name of religion:sacrifices to their God(s), territorial takeover, one religion battling it out over another and so forth. How does this justify God telling theists killing is wrong?

Perhaps this is proof that God is an excuse to kill and does not really exist.
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,882 posts, read 31,776,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtieE View Post
Simply because in Scenario 2 it is the obese man who has the choice between watching the 5 men die or sacrifice himself to save them. His choice not yours.
Or the man seeing the obese man could jump and save the other five.....
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,882 posts, read 31,776,624 times
Reputation: 12629
Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan
Agreed. But if God exists, killing is really wrong. You can't say the same with atheism.
Really a big fail...The god you revere if he existed killed entire nations including babies and animals, condoned slavery and rape...Wiped every living thing from the face of the planet, and you think he is telling you killing is wrong? I have news for you. Belief in god has no bearing on whether you are a moral person or not...I am an atheist and my source of morality is the same as yours, society and the community you live in.

I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its Churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world.
Bertrand Russell
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:25 PM
 
1,474 posts, read 3,086,095 times
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It is pretty much a fool's errand for a believer to debate with a non-believer. A relationship with Jesus Christ as defined in scripture is a supernatural experience. It is wrought by God, not by the person. God does all the choosing since creation and before it. Scripture says even the demons believe so even someone who says they believe in God has the same belief level as a demon. An atheist simply has no belief in a God. Fine. The crux of the New Testament is Jesus Christ and Him being God manifested in the flesh. There is plenty of "God belief" and much less Jesus Christ as Savior belief. It depends on whether one takes a high view of scripture or a low view. The low view appears to have as much faith as an atheist. As some theologian said, "most 'Christians live as practical atheists". If one does not accept the supernatural world, then their understanding of spiritual matters is impossible. The atheists, I gather, only believe what they can see with their senses or what they believe is true through the sciences. The good part is that via death, the question will be answered in some form.

Merry Christmas all including our atheist and agnostic friends.
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