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Old 11-19-2013, 09:31 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,145,574 times
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Most of us learned back in childhood that Santa Claus, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy didn't exist.

So why would we believe in some other imaginary being? Fairy tales are great fun, but in the end, they are just fairy tales.

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Old 11-19-2013, 11:19 PM
 
Location: KYLE TEXAS
431 posts, read 400,332 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
So presumably if you ever lose your faith then you will become a serial killer

Have you ever sat back and thought about how incredibly stupid your comment is.
more likely you wil become a serial killer BECAUSE of faith.

most killer have a believe in some sort of deity of kill because of something they read in the dable just one example ABORTION DOCTOR KILLERS ,
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:39 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,318,574 times
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Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Agreed. But if God exists, killing is really wrong. You can't say the same with atheism.
Not a bit of it. Killing is a-ok with you people. You just use different justifications and excuses for it. Remember the commandment is not "Thou shalt not kill" but "Thou shalt not murder" and what constitutes murder is suitably vague. The idea that killing is wrong however in such religions is just plain false. The imaginary existence of these gods is actually used to justify all kinds of killing by all kinds of religionists and memeoids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
But you can never get moral values with atheism.
Repeating this lie over and over will not magically make it true. We very much can get moral values. We just do not lie to ourselves and pretend they are _objective_ values or that a great imaginary man in the sky rubber stamps them and agrees with our opinions about them.

If you have to support your moral outlook by simply making things up then perhaps it is time to re-evaluate your moral outlooks.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:41 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,198 posts, read 9,159,908 times
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Originally Posted by Ollie1946 View Post
It is pretty much a fool's errand for a believer to debate with a non-believer. A relationship with Jesus Christ as defined in scripture is a supernatural experience. It is wrought by God, not by the person. God does all the choosing since creation and before it. Scripture says even the demons believe so even someone who says they believe in God has the same belief level as a demon. An atheist simply has no belief in a God. Fine. The crux of the New Testament is Jesus Christ and Him being God manifested in the flesh. There is plenty of "God belief" and much less Jesus Christ as Savior belief. It depends on whether one takes a high view of scripture or a low view. The low view appears to have as much faith as an atheist. As some theologian said, "most 'Christians live as practical atheists". If one does not accept the supernatural world, then their understanding of spiritual matters is impossible.
As a former evangelical, I actually agree with this in the main. To this day I don't understand the point of liberal versions of Christianity or any other religion. It is too vague to have any appeal to me. I at least give credit to fundamentalists for attempting to actually follow the tenets of the faith from its alleged source. The problem for me was that the closer you get to the bare metal, so to speak, and don't hide behind what I regard as excessive metaphor and allegory and rationalizations, the more legalistic, superstitious, and out of touch with reality you get. There is no realm of spirit, at least as represented in scripture; and there is no tri-omni god as represented in scripture. It was my very dedication to what I thought was capital-T Truth that undid me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie1946 View Post
The atheists, I gather, only believe what they can see with their senses or what they believe is true through the sciences. The good part is that via death, the question will be answered in some form.

Merry Christmas all including our atheist and agnostic friends.
When you gloat about some imagined comeuppance for unbelievers in one breath and then wish them a merry Christmas, it doesn't come off as particularly sincere.
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:09 AM
 
17,853 posts, read 12,300,389 times
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Originally Posted by roscomac View Post
Killing is wrong because there is a god?

Eating meat is wrong? Abortion is wrong? War is wrong? Killing in self-defense is wrong? Capital punishment is wrong? AND...all true believers in GOD agree on all of these?

What good is an an absolute standard from a god if said god cannot/will clearly communicate it and if true believers can't determine what it is?
What good is an absolute standard of morality from a 'god' when that absolute standard is far lower than the moral standards of most civilized human beings?
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Old 11-20-2013, 07:40 AM
 
1,474 posts, read 3,099,138 times
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When you gloat about some imagined comeuppance for unbelievers in one breath and then wish them a merry Christmas, it doesn't come off as particularly sincere.[/quote]

Not gloating at all. Sorry it came across as that.

I do wish a Merry Xmas to everyone. I am not an enemy of atheists at all. I know a few and like them. An atheist can be a person of remarkable good character as a "christian" can be one remarkably low.

The widow lady across the street is not a believer and quite likely an atheist but that does not prevent me from assisting her throughout the year. She and my wife have routine lunches together. "Love thy neighbor".

I would like to think that even atheist donate funds for relief efforts in the Philippines. I do through Samaritan's Purse but there are other ways for others who object to all things Christian.

Like it or not, death is the greatest resolver of all things to do with life, and depending on ones belief, an afterlife.

Hope this clears things.

What is discouraging is militancy on both sides of the belief aisle. Rancorous rhetoric accomplishes nothing but that is what passes for discussion/debate in our culture. There was a time when men sat down and wrote long, thoughtful letters although in some testy exchanges at times, but today, it is just awful how we communicate to one another.
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Old 11-20-2013, 08:42 AM
 
39,884 posts, read 11,154,715 times
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That's Ok. I understand that you are telling it like it is. If there is an element of superiority in talking religion, it is through the idea that to believe makes you a better person, spiritually at least. Nothing to boast about, but just fact.

So wishes for a Merry Christmas can share a seat with it.

Atheists must also come across with a superior air. We reckon we have better evidence, thought about it, reasoned it out better and some point to figures that suggest better intelligence and moral standards. I apologise if we come across as smug and superior, but , again, it is like it is: we do reason, use evidence and think about it outside the confines of dogma. That's what (we would say) makes us think we have the better of it.
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Old 11-20-2013, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
269 posts, read 169,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie1946 View Post
The atheists, I gather, only believe what they can see with their senses or what they believe is true through the sciences. The good part is that via death, the question will be answered in some form.

Merry Christmas all including our atheist and agnostic friends.
let me present a situation that i think would give you a better understanding.

it's just you and your 5 yr old in a new city, where you have yet to make many friends and family members are too far away to rely on for emergencies....you have made one acquaintance in the time since you moved there with a person who has proven to be trusting with the limited time you have had with them.
a situation arises where you have to attend to an important matter, a meeting anything, the point is your child cannot be with you. now you can go to "craigslist" and look for a stranger to baby sit your child, or you can call your friend. since there is no evidence that would establish a stranger who posts an ad to baby sit children means any ill will towards them, would you pick the stranger or your friend?

and why?

that is why atheists REJECT any and all assertions that CANNOT be verified.

Last edited by minidiaz; 11-20-2013 at 10:16 AM..
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Old 11-20-2013, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,198 posts, read 9,159,908 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie1946 View Post
Not gloating at all. Sorry it came across as that.

I do wish a Merry Xmas to everyone. I am not an enemy of atheists at all. I know a few and like them. An atheist can be a person of remarkable good character as a "christian" can be one remarkably low.
Fair enough ... apology accepted.

I can say the same about theists I know. It's not a big deal in practice unless people want to make it into one. I am not automatically impressed by someone's religious beliefs but I am not automatically unimpressed, either. I pay attention to what people do, not what they say. As you note when you say the atheists can be of good character and Christians can be of bad character, in my experience religion has little to do with what people do or don't do, ultimately.
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Old 11-20-2013, 04:18 PM
 
1,474 posts, read 3,099,138 times
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Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Fair enough ... apology accepted.

I can say the same about theists I know. It's not a big deal in practice unless people want to make it into one. I am not automatically impressed by someone's religious beliefs but I am not automatically unimpressed, either. I pay attention to what people do, not what they say. As you note when you say the atheists can be of good character and Christians can be of bad character, in my experience religion has little to do with what people do or don't do, ultimately.
A big scripture verse that trips up many a "christian" is from Luke 6:46. "Why do you call me Lord and yet don't do the things which I say?" You are correct about seeing the deeds because you cannot see the heart.

And Christ also said that in the coming judgment, many will be shocked that they do not enter His kingdom because they did not hand out a cup of water in His name nor conducted good works towards others in His name. He tells them He does not know them.

One of the many issues I have with evangelicals is their unbiblical belief that someone can walk an aisle, prayer a prayer led by someone else and be told, be convinced, that they have experienced salvation with absolutely no serious change in their life, their attitudes towards others. They are horribly deceived. Now I realize that atheist think this is hooey. Fine. But in Christian realms, it is true and disastrous.

There are crazies in every camp sad to say. Belief, Christian belief, is personal, life changing and ultimately a supernatural event. It is unexplainable but it does change a life. No change? No real belief.
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