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Old 11-02-2013, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Rational World Park
4,999 posts, read 3,885,312 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Hi all atheists, what answer would you give to the following questions?

1- Why is there something rather than nothing (nothing being the non-existence of anything at all)?

2-If there is no God, is there good and evil, also called moral values? (No, there isn't) How could you come to the conclusion that helping is good and killing is bad?

3- If you believe that God is just a human idea and doesn't exist, than you have to consider that the moral values are also just human ideas and are not true in reality. If that is so, being you someone who was taught about the moral values since your childhood, how could you believe in your perspective of reality, once your own mind was built based in something that isn't actually true (moral values) by your own perspective?

Thanks!
1. I don't know.

2. There is no god and we've built a pretty good society based on secular laws (values). Believers just cherrypick whichever version of the buybull they pretend to adhere to. If god were real (it isn't), it'd be terrible at conveying a consistent message. There are at least 1000 known different variations of christianity. There are untold other religions, all mutually exclusive.

3. This is completely incoherent.
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Old 11-02-2013, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Rational World Park
4,999 posts, read 3,885,312 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
I know the difference between right and wrong. -> Based on what? If there is no God, we are just powder. Right and wrong are just metaphors then.
Human beings decide what's right or wrong. Period. Those things change over time. Thanks to the buybull, humans were cool with slavery for a long time. Thankfully, most have gotten over that. Oh yeah, which god is this? There are literally 1000s invisibly, inaudibly knowing everything yet doing nothing.
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Old 11-02-2013, 11:48 PM
 
Location: Deep Dirty South
5,192 posts, read 4,391,143 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
...I wasn't talking about religion doing the killing, I was talking hands on, no middle man slaughter by Yahweh. Like when he wiped out all the first born sons of Egypt, or drowned Pharaoh's army in the Red Sea....or the Great Flood when Yahweh really went berserk and killed everyone except Noah and his family.
I particularly like the passage in Kings II where Yahweh sends two she-bears to maul 42 children to death for making fun of Elisha's baldness.

Now that is sure to set a moral example for us all, right?

Quote:
So, if we determine champions on the basis of percentages, Yahweh leaves the commies in the dust.
Don't forget, going by reliance on belief in the invisible supernatural deity known as Yahweh, he is also the greatest abortionist by far.
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Old 11-02-2013, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Deep Dirty South
5,192 posts, read 4,391,143 times
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Seems like this is a good place to post this again:

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Old 11-03-2013, 12:57 AM
 
278 posts, read 255,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Hi all atheists, what answer would you give to the following questions?

1- Why is there something rather than nothing (nothing being the non-existence of anything at all)?

2-If there is no God, is there good and evil, also called moral values? (No, there isn't) How could you come to the conclusion that helping is good and killing is bad?

3- If you believe that God is just a human idea and doesn't exist, than you have to consider that the moral values are also just human ideas and are not true in reality. If that is so, being you someone who was taught about the moral values since your childhood, how could you believe in your perspective of reality, once your own mind was built based in something that isn't actually true (moral values) by your own perspective?

Thanks!
1. "Nothing" is a novel concept that doesn't really exist anywhere in the universe. Even in a vacuum there is a bubbling cauldron of quantum activity. Something from 'nothing' shouldn't be that bothersome to you anyway, since you believe your omnipotent god birthed himself from nothing.

2. What good thing can a believer do that a non-believer couldn't do? Religion doesn't have the monopoly on morality. Mankind is smart enough to figure out what's in his best interest without consultation to the big sky wizard.

3. Your logic is faulty. Many human ideas are true in reality. The golden rule, for instance, really works and you don't have to resort to any magical thinking and hocus pocus mythology to live by it.
We are ultimately judged by someone, but it's not an imaginary deity; it's our contemporaries and our peers.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:34 AM
 
Location: Deep Dirty South
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelDragon View Post
Something from 'nothing' shouldn't be that bothersome to you anyway, since you believe your omnipotent god birthed himself from nothing...
Of course, the fallback cop-out apologistic response to this is "Well, Gawd exists outside of and apart from space and time! God has always existed!"
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Old 11-03-2013, 04:19 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,743,974 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Hi all atheists, what answer would you give to the following questions?

1- Why is there something rather than nothing (nothing being the non-existence of anything at all)?

2-If there is no God, is there good and evil, also called moral values? (No, there isn't) How could you come to the conclusion that helping is good and killing is bad?

3- If you believe that God is just a human idea and doesn't exist, than you have to consider that the moral values are also just human ideas and are not true in reality. If that is so, being you someone who was taught about the moral values since your childhood, how could you believe in your perspective of reality, once your own mind was built based in something that isn't actually true (moral values) by your own perspective?

Thanks!
I'm an Agnostic but I doubt you are right about your god existing; so what the heck:

1) the nothing you are talking about wouldn't be able to have anything within it to stop something from existing. Also, the nothing you are talking about is very illogical and probably wouldn't have ever existed anyway.

2) Aside from taking all personality from God and calling It Karma, moral values could exist just like any other personal and societal values not created by your God, such as aesthetics and monetary values. Just like a personal God without any reason or purpose for existing can choose what is right and wrong, a person and group of people of the same above mentioned quality can do that too (and the evidence seems to show that they do).
Helping could be good by definition, Helping can be good Hedonistically, Ethical-Egoistically, Utalitarianistically, Categorical Imperativistically, etc. So much philosophy on ethics is out there. I mean seriously, isn't it fallacious circular logic, or something, to say that God is good because he says He is? How can you tell that God is good if you can't tell the moral value of anything else? How can you judge God when you can't even judge between helping and killing?

3) Human ideas are true in reality; but only as human ideas since they don't defend themselves, unlike the concept gravity or something like that: which is an idea representing a phenomena which defends itself, so to speak... just because "the objective standard of beauty" isn't true in reality doesn't mean I can't enjoy a good painting. If you believe "correct human judgement" is just an idea and doesn't exist, then how to distinguish your competitors' "false" religions from your "true of course" religion? Weren't you someone who was taught your moral values from childhood too? Morals are actually real to anyone who has them, most of them experience morals and Judge them in the same way you experience and judge your ideas of God. Would you kill for God? After all, to a possible theist like you, morals don't exist, but only God/Power exists... Why not sacrifice an animal or two for His olfactory (Hedonistic) enjoyment at his random command and gain the favor of the Powerful? How can someone who can't judge helping to be good judge God to be good? Power is no standard of goodness, Age is no standard of goodness, etc.

Why exactly is your God moral? Is He the messenger of real Morals, or the Dictator and Disposer of them? If your answer is the latter, then God's morals don't exist either, they are just made-up by an immoral God with no reason nor purpose for having existed. If your answer is the former then you would understand one reason why atheists can believe in morals.
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Old 11-03-2013, 04:47 AM
 
393 posts, read 216,120 times
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LuminousTruth,

re: "I'm an Agnostic but I doubt you are right about your god existing..."


And if you don't have a belief in a supreme being , then you are also an atheist.
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Old 11-03-2013, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Deep Dirty South
5,192 posts, read 4,391,143 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
LuminousTruth,

re: "I'm an Agnostic but I doubt you are right about your god existing..."


And if you don't have a belief in a supreme being , then you are also an atheist.
An agnostic really believes whether or not a god or gods exist is either unknowable or beyond current human understanding and knowledge.

Which is actually 100% accurate.

Believers themselves are nearly 100% atheists.

Do you believe in Odin? Zeus? Vishnu? Ra? Baal?

Well, then you are atheistic regarding those gods and any others you do not believe in.

And yet there is no reason whatsoever to make the claim that Yahweh or any other specific god is "real" and all others are false.
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Old 11-03-2013, 07:13 AM
 
2,743 posts, read 1,771,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
1- That doesn't answer it.
2- If there is no God, there is no good or bad. Everything is just powder.
3- There are plenty of evidences about Christianity. Many historians like Martin Hengel show that, so my morals come from it. The entire base for moral values that human have came from the egipts, greeks and the judaic-christianity culture. Read the epic book from C. S. Lewis called The Abolition of Men.
Isn't this post inappropriate in this forum? Wouldn't it be more appropriate in the general religion forum? Are you that insecure about your beliefs that you have to come to the atheist forum to air your views?
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