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Old 11-09-2013, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Rivendell
1,387 posts, read 2,167,096 times
Reputation: 1650

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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Sorry but the Golden Rule is bullsh*t based. "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself." Ok. How about if you adopt two children and have sex with them. ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzly Friddle View Post
So when you were a kid you wanted to be molested?
What is with the crazy theist posters that come to this forum? They ignore most questions asked of them, and then talk about molesting children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
I'm just giving an example of how this idea wouldn't work without an objective standard for moral values.
What does your example have to do with with an objective standard for moral values?
It is clear that some people in the past and from different cultures have very different morals from some people today. There is definitely nothing objective or absolute about morals. You've got to have your head buried in the sand to think otherwise, when there is so much evidence that morality is subjective.

Did you want to be molested when you were a child? Yes or no? It is a fair question.
Do you ever want people to do bad things to you? Do you want to do bad things to people?

Feel free to answer the questions instead of ignoring them.
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Old 11-09-2013, 09:49 PM
 
Location: SoCal
5,722 posts, read 4,535,220 times
Reputation: 1865
Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
Hi all atheists, what answer would you give to the following questions?

1- Why is there something rather than nothing (nothing being the non-existence of anything at all)?

2-If there is no God, is there good and evil, also called moral values? (No, there isn't) How could you come to the conclusion that helping is good and killing is bad?

3- If you believe that God is just a human idea and doesn't exist, than you have to consider that the moral values are also just human ideas and are not true in reality. If that is so, being you someone who was taught about the moral values since your childhood, how could you believe in your perspective of reality, once your own mind was built based in something that isn't actually true (moral values) by your own perspective?

Thanks!
I'm an agnostic, rather than an atheist. That said, here goes:

1. I'm not sure.

2. Yes, there is, but they might be subjective, as opposed to objective values.

I came to the conclusion that helping is good and that killing is bad because my own core morals (the Golden Rule, et cetera) (logically) led to this conclusion.

3. I am aware that morality is subjective. Thus, I am open to hearing other individuals' views on various issues. I have sometimes changed my mind on these issues based on other people's arguments. Of course their arguments are also subjective, but they appear to be the most convincing and logically sound to me, at least for the time being.

I'm sorry, but my brain became a little confused by/due to all of these questions. Thus, my answers here might not be that good.
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Old 11-10-2013, 05:07 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,744,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
I'm just giving an example of how this idea wouldn't work without an objective standard for moral values.
look around you, the moral standard is pretty damn objective. pretty much more objective than your God decided what is right and wrong out of his subjective thin air.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
They [animals] act by instinct. We are rational, not them. They don't know they are doing. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project agrees with me.
We are animals and we act by instinct too. Animals are affected by their environments and upbringings as we are. Most animals think and rationalize extremely similarly to like we do. They think about possibilities and chose what to do. They might not write poems but their behavior is constrained by their morality as much as ours is.

Have you thought about my posts at all? How can you judge gods if you can't even judge between helping and killing? How can your god judge morals if he is pulling them out of thin air?

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 11-10-2013 at 05:20 AM..
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Old 11-12-2013, 05:01 PM
 
50 posts, read 53,117 times
Reputation: 28
First, yes most historians believe Jesus existed. I can cite Martin Hengel just to give an example.
If God does not exist, we are just groups of particles, nothing else. Killing in this case would be just changing the state of matter.
Yes, Christianity helped to create science, as John Lennox says.
Atheism isn't something new, as most people think, but it's actually very old. At the time of Aristotle, about 350 b.C., there were phylosophers who were atheists. We don't usually hear about them because they were not important at all.
And to moral values, read The Abolition of the Man, by C. S. Lewis. It is a short fantastic book from the legendary scholar of Oxford entirely about the origin of moral values.
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Old 11-12-2013, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,091,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
If God does not exist, we are just groups of particles, nothing else. Killing in this case would be just changing the state of matter.
We are groups of particles whether or not god assembled them. The value we place on those groups of particles -- particularly the ones that represent you and your loved ones for instance -- is based on those particular configuration of particles having sentience and self-awareness and on their relation to one another.

The configurations of particles that represent my wife, children, step-children and grandchildren are no less valuable because they are made of particles. That you feel the need to add some ineffable thing called a soul or spirit is a conceptual conceit, not a necessity. I would consider them no more dear to me if it could be shown that they have spirits or that they are immortal. And they are no less dear to me for being material and mortal. These things have nothing to do with one another, you are just used to thinking that they do, to the point that you consider the notion indispensable and its absence unthinkable. Yet things are what they are regardless.

It is odd to me that Christians find the way things are in the natural world so intolerable and insufficient that they have to invent bolt-on accessories like souls and afterlives to comfort themselves for not being center stage in the great scheme of things, for not being special favorites of a powerful heavenly benefactor. The reality is that we are mortal and transient and impermanent and insignificant in a vast universe, just like everything else, and the sooner you accept that and relax into it the sooner you can enjoy what there is to enjoy about the only life you will actually ever have.
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Old 11-12-2013, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,697 posts, read 23,681,631 times
Reputation: 35449
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
look around you, the moral standard is pretty damn objective. pretty much more objective than your God decided what is right and wrong out of his subjective thin air.



We are animals and we act by instinct too. Animals are affected by their environments and upbringings as we are. Most animals think and rationalize extremely similarly to like we do. They think about possibilities and chose what to do. They might not write poems but their behavior is constrained by their morality as much as ours is.

Have you thought about my posts at all? How can you judge gods if you can't even judge between helping and killing? How can your god judge morals if he is pulling them out of thin air?
Also animals' instincts keep them from wantonly killing those of their species unlike humans who often use God to justify the killing of their own.
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Old 11-12-2013, 11:21 PM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 39,794,977 times
Reputation: 16147
Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
First, yes most historians believe Jesus existed. I can cite Martin Hengel just to give an example.
If God does not exist, we are just groups of particles, nothing else. Killing in this case would be just changing the state of matter.
Yes, Christianity helped to create science, as John Lennox says.
Atheism isn't something new, as most people think, but it's actually very old. At the time of Aristotle, about 350 b.C., there were phylosophers who were atheists. We don't usually hear about them because they were not important at all.
And to moral values, read The Abolition of the Man, by C. S. Lewis. It is a short fantastic book from the legendary scholar of Oxford entirely about the origin of moral values.
Well, you convinced me. Obviously there must be a god. You know, because of the particles.
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Old 11-12-2013, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,697 posts, read 23,681,631 times
Reputation: 35449
Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
First, yes most historians believe Jesus existed. I can cite Martin Hengel just to give an example.
If God does not exist, we are just groups of particles, nothing else. Killing in this case would be just changing the state of matter.
Yes, Christianity helped to create science, as John Lennox says.
Atheism isn't something new, as most people think, but it's actually very old. At the time of Aristotle, about 350 b.C., there were phylosophers who were atheists. We don't usually hear about them because they were not important at all.
And to moral values, read The Abolition of the Man, by C. S. Lewis. It is a short fantastic book from the legendary scholar of Oxford entirely about the origin of moral values.
Most people? What most people? I have never heard this. I think most people believe atheism has always been present.

Here is a list of atheist philosophers and it is a long one. to say they weren't important because no one has ever heard of them is truly indicative of all the other arrogant dismissive statements you have used to prove your points while ignoring those that disprove them.

List of atheist philosophers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11-13-2013, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh
1,650 posts, read 3,010,847 times
Reputation: 2122
Quote:
Originally Posted by iohanan View Post
First, yes most historians believe Jesus existed. I can cite Martin Hengel just to give an example.
.... At the time of Aristotle, about 350 b.C., there were phylosophers who were atheists. We don't usually hear about them because they were not important at all.
You mean like Martin Hengel? You come up with one German religious historian to support your assertion that most historians believe that Jesus existed?

Your post demonstrates how you weigh evidence.
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Old 11-13-2013, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,697 posts, read 23,681,631 times
Reputation: 35449
Quote:
Originally Posted by roscomac View Post
You mean like Martin Hengel? You come up with one German religious historian to support your assertion that most historians believe that Jesus existed?

Your post demonstrates how you weigh evidence.
He does throw a lot of names around, doesn't he? Perhaps it's because he has trouble formulating his own ideas he must take from others.
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