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Old 11-05-2013, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
2,890 posts, read 4,205,420 times
Reputation: 3098

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post
Okay, ros, the way I see it, there is a distinction between a concept in our mind and an object in actual objective reality.

There are all kinds of concepts in our mind, and we can talk about them, for example, in the present context, the concept of God, another example, the concept of an invisible pink unicorn.

Now, we ask ourselves, how did humans ever get the concept of God and the concept of an invisible pink unicorn in our minds?

My idea is that by and from our experience in the actual objective realm of existing objects.

Do you have any contributions to my thinking at this point?




Ryrge
Let expand on this thought just a little: I see a lightening bolt come down from the sky, (I'm completely ignorant of lightening), therefore there must be something up there throwing these bolts of fire to the ground, ahhh! it a god of lightening. The next day another lightening bolt, but this time it hits one of my cattle, I can now assume that I must have done something to anger this god because this god killed one of my cattle. To save myself from any futher anger from this god, I take one of my calves and sacrifice it to the lightening god. No more cattle are hit by lightening, therefore this sacrifice is something that god wants.

This is how something completely unknown become a belief, and it has nothing at all to do with a god.

 
Old 11-05-2013, 05:26 PM
 
608 posts, read 530,487 times
Reputation: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terryj View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge
Okay, ros, the way I see it, there is a distinction between a concept in our mind and an object in actual objective reality.

There are all kinds of concepts in our mind, and we can talk about them, for example, in the present context, the concept of God, another example, the concept of an invisible pink unicorn.

Now, we ask ourselves, how did humans ever get the concept of God and the concept of an invisible pink unicorn in our minds?

My idea is that by and from our experience in the actual objective realm of existing objects.

Do you have any contributions to my thinking at this point?

Let expand on this thought just a little: I see a lightening bolt come down from the sky, (I'm completely ignorant of lightening), therefore there must be something up there throwing these bolts of fire to the ground, ahhh! it a god of lightening. The next day another lightening bolt, but this time it hits one of my cattle, I can now assume that I must have done something to anger this god because this god killed one of my cattle. To save myself from any futher anger from this god, I take one of my calves and sacrifice it to the lightening god. No more cattle are hit by lightening, therefore this sacrifice is something that god wants.

This is how something completely unknown become a belief, and it has nothing at all to do with a god.

Thanks, Terry, for your contribution.

Dear others here, thanks also for your posts, allow me to talk with Terry.


Again, thanks, Terry, for your contribution.

Let me reproduce your message, with enumerating of your sentences (pay attention to the lines I put in bold):


Quote:
1. Let expand on this thought just a little:

2. I see a lightening bolt come down from the sky, (I'm completely ignorant of lightening),

3. therefore there must be something up there throwing these bolts of fire to the ground,

4. ahhh! it a god of lightening.

5. The next day another lightening bolt, but this time it hits one of my cattle, I can now assume that I must have done something to anger this god

6. because this god killed one of my cattle.

7. To save myself from any futher anger from this god, I take one of my calves and sacrifice it to the lightening god.

8. No more cattle are hit by lightening, therefore this sacrifice is something that god wants.

9. This is how something completely unknown become a belief, and it has nothing at all to do with a god.

In your human way of experiencing and thinking on your experience in your human way, you come to the concept of a god of lightning bolt, and that this god conducts himself similar to humans, he gets angry and violent, and he must be pacified, otherwise he will be more violent toward you, but with your sacrifice or gift of a calf, he gets appeased.

That is correct, how humans in very primitive times came to the concept of a god, in particular of a god of lightning.

But I think you should rewrite sentence #9.

Instead of:
9. This is how something completely unknown become a belief, and it has nothing at all to do with a god.
Shouldn't it be:
9. This is how man's experience leads him to the concept which has to do with a god of lightning bolt.

You see, as man examines all his experiences of such phenomena as the one you narrate, down the millennia of man's thinking on his experiences, guiding himself on his reason and intelligence, he has come to the concept of an entity we now call God, Who in relation to man and the physical universe is the creator of everything that is not He Himself.


That is the topic of this thread: Concepts and the existence of God.


We are now into the part about how concepts get to the mind of man.





Rryge
 
Old 11-05-2013, 07:07 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,250,975 times
Reputation: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post
...

But I think you should rewrite sentence #9.

Instead of:
9. This is how something completely unknown become a belief, and it has nothing at all to do with a god.
Shouldn't it be:
9. This is how man's experience leads him to the concept which has to do with a god of lightning bolt.
You see, as man examines all his experiences of such phenomena as the one you narrate, down the millennia of man's thinking on his experiences, guiding himself on his reason and intelligence, he has come to the concept of an entity we now call God, Who in relation to man and the physical universe is the creator of everything that is not He Himself.
I think you are missing the point. The original illustration shows how man can formulate the idea of a god, without there actually being one at all. Man sees lightning, man attributes it to an entity modeled after an idealized model of himself. This does not depend on there actually being a lightning god. It is entirely in man's mind that this god exists.

-NoCapo
 
Old 11-06-2013, 05:50 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,938,841 times
Reputation: 1804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryrge View Post
Well, assuming that you atheists here are Westerners, I am talking about God in the Christian faith.
Why? What makes that god any more interesting than the rest?
 
Old 11-06-2013, 04:52 PM
 
608 posts, read 530,487 times
Reputation: 33
Well, I am now into how concepts get into the mind of a human being.

When you people posting here have a statement in that direction, I will talk with you.

This thread is about "Concepts and the existence of God."


I am now into concepts, how they get into the mind of a human being, and Terry has given one concrete example of how a human being got into his mind the concept of a god of lightning bolt.

When we get enough contributions from posters here in that direction, namely: how concepts get into the mind of a human being, then we can proceed to distill what is the essence of the concept of God with human beings who do have a concept at all about a god, and then talk about how this concept can have a corresponding object in the realm of actual objective reality of existence, as distinct from the realm of concepts in the mind of human beings.


I am now into contributing my thinking in the thread, "Confused about atheism?"

But I will check into my own thread here to see if there is another contribution on how concepts get into the mind of human beings.




Ryrge
 
Old 11-06-2013, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,862 posts, read 3,787,690 times
Reputation: 4594
Ryrge, you seem like a genuine person so I don't want what I'm about to say to seem like a joke or a dig at you. These are my genuine thoughts.


I have never had any concept of god other than what other people have told me, so they are not my concepts, they are other peoples.


My first ever visual concept of god in all honesty came from Monty Python. You know this one:



I was brought up in Britain in a fairly non religious family who only went to church because that is what you did in those days. I never understood what god was supposed to be. I'm a very literal person so an image no matter how comical was quite helpful.

Since then I have various concepts of god, told to me by others, which are a mainly consist of an invisible being, ranging from:
God being a part of everything - like in nature.
God being somehow outside the universe.
God who created the universe but then washed his hands of it after the flood.
God who still creates everything - every strawberry and leaf. Lots of people still seem to believe in this type of god.


None of them are my visions, they are how I imagine other people visualise god, and since I don't believe god exists I can only take their word for what is going on in other peoples heads.

I don't have any coherent visualisation of how any one person conceptualises god as everybody seems to have a different story. So to me it's all a bit of a mish-mash.

My own version of god is that there isn't one.

I don't know if that helps at all.


EDIT. Wait I just remembered this too. This was a fairly early visualisation too:


There use to be a sort of topical news / documentary TV program in the UK called 'The South Bank Show' my dad used to watch. I remember this image being part of the opening credits and knew it was a visualisation of the christian god creating Adam story.
So basically a white haired guy in human form, not a million miles away from the Monty Python image.
I had this Leonardo image on my wall the entire time I was a Uni Student years later. I admired it for the artistry.

Last edited by Cruithne; 11-06-2013 at 05:56 PM.. Reason: Addition
 
Old 11-07-2013, 05:15 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,810 posts, read 19,905,205 times
Reputation: 23215
OMG....(yours, his, the mythical ones or whatever) he's back!
 
Old 11-07-2013, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,964 posts, read 6,500,939 times
Reputation: 44354
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
It's almost like a mantra - he keeps chanting his premise throughout his posts.



He's trying to hypnotize atheists into becoming believers!
That's what I think too.

If this stays I'll touch on the following. No need for me to read this entire thread as reading what I just did made me dizzy enough:

Quote:
Atheists, please just present what information you have of the concept of God...
A figment of ones imagination.

Quote:
how did humans ever get the concept of God
Horny old men on drugs writing nonsense before science and massive brainwashing to control the masses.
 
Old 11-07-2013, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,085,887 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
It's almost like a mantra - he keeps chanting his premise throughout his posts.
It is just his way of attempting to control and frame the conversation. At the end of the day the only real difference between his presentation and that of any other theist is that its particularly low-bandwidth, verbose and tedious. Which is saying something. Also it sort of turns the usual non-engagement on its ear. Normally the pattern is:

Theist: (bald assertion)
Atheist: (request for evidence)
Theist: (repeat the assertion, make a different one, or resort to some form of sophistry)
Atheist: (rebuttal)
Theist: (partially and often speciously address part of one of the rebuttal points, or even ignore them all)
Atheist: (insist they respond to the rebuttal on its merits)
Theist: (claim to be persecuted or disrespected and/or run away)
etc.

With this guy, it's:

Ryrge: (question)
Atheist: (answer)
Ryrge: (pretend not to have gotten an answer and/or demand for the question to be interpreted in a very particular way)
Atheist: (???)
Ryrge: (why are you afraid to talk to me?)
Atheist: (!!!)
Ryrge: (claim to be not honestly engaged with, go off and make his own thread in an attempt to carve out his own territory, then spam all the other threads "inviting" people to join "his" thread)

It ends up amounting to the same thing.
 
Old 11-07-2013, 08:30 AM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 39,776,585 times
Reputation: 16147
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post

With this guy, it's:

Ryrge: (question)
Atheist: (answer)
Ryrge: (pretend not to have gotten an answer and/or demand for the question to be interpreted in a very particular way)
Atheist: (???)
Ryrge: (why are you afraid to talk to me?)
Atheist: (!!!)
Ryrge: (claim to be not honestly engaged with, go off and make his own thread in an attempt to carve out his own territory, then spam all the other threads "inviting" people to join "his" thread)

It ends up amounting to the same thing.
You forgot the most important part. Fake apologize every other sentence.
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