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Old 11-21-2013, 03:39 AM
 
2,826 posts, read 1,869,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Is it Atheism, or Logic that you don't grasp?
I understand logic. Do you?

To me, it makes more sense that if there's a block of wood, and I carved it into the shape of a racecar, naturally I created a wooden racecar.

What I don't grasp, is exactly what I just said. I can't buy that a person could have no emotional reasons at all for embracing atheism. Humans are emotional critters, we could conceivably make purely logical decisions (example: the job pays well, so despite a personal problem or a death in the family, there should be no reason to take off work) but generally that's not what happens (I'm having a personal issue, death in the family, maybe the boss just didn't bother to call me, therefore I'm not going). We instead often make the most insane decisions, so (a) either atheism is somehow inhuman or (b) atheism is fairly human and fairly easily based off our desires, but much like couples citing money as the most common reason for breakup (there are actually other emotional reasons too but so as to not appear irrational, these are never brought up), the reason for being an atheist being personal hurts the case that it is a purely "logical" system.

Human beings are emotional as well as logical.

Arequipa, it's not that I'm "not yet ready" to go atheist. I will never be ready. I came upon my decision to be both by equally strong logical (I could argue either using scientific theory or anything from Cartesian to evil genius philosophy, to outright comparison of religion to geological events. It makes sense to me) and emotional (why it personally means something to me) reasons. So I expect the same of any system, belief or disbelief, that I come across.

I no longer goto church. I met this girl, and she basically made me question what I was doing with my life. Here I was, going to the temple of a religion I didn't care about. Look, someone long ago died for people. But really, what does that have to do with me? My life sucks, and it didn't matter how good or charitable I acted, nobody liked me enough to want to be my lover. Worse, I realized one former priest, who I was currently working under as a landscaper, was actually using me. So faced with all this, I stopped going to church. I don't believe in churches or priests, I believe in the "in spirit and in truth" idea that if there's religion, it's found with people instead. So I "believe" in people I care about. I'd expect the same personal history of atheism, even if Dawkins himself tried to persuade me.

Btw, this is my point. What about Dawkins' life made him become an atheist?

Quote:
He was a Christian until halfway through his teenage years, at which point he concluded that the theory of evolution was a better explanation for life's complexity, and ceased believing in a god. Dawkins states: "the main residual reason why I was religious was from being so impressed with the complexity of life and feeling that it had to have a designer, and I think it was when I realised that Darwinism was a far superior explanation that pulled the rug out from under the argument of design. And that left me with nothing."
There you have it. That's the reason.

To me, having an idea that you aren't personally involved in, is sorta like trying to sell a product that you don't believe in. That's what I'm asking basically. If atheism is based on reason, then... what's your reason? I fit facts together like a puzzle, and figure if they jive together, but without the person's past, it's incomplete.

Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 11-21-2013 at 04:29 AM..
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:41 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,325,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
To me, having an idea that you aren't personally involved in, is sorta like trying to sell a product that you don't believe in. That's what I'm asking basically. If atheism is based on reason, then... what's your reason? I fit facts together like a puzzle, and figure if they jive together, but without the person's past, it's incomplete.
We hear a lot of Dawkins and Hitchens but their conclusions I only learned of after my deconversion. I was heavily invested in religion and in search of truth™ but that is nowhere to be found. I would have been happier with the middle of the road agnostic as that does not carry as much baggage as atheist does. Problem is that I do have enough knowledge and research under my belt to conclude the extreme of no god(s) exists.

Just like theists walk around with varying ego-centric god concepts, the same can be said for non believers. I use that term as there now seems to be more pigeon holes like agnostic-atheist, strong-atheist and so on. Our individual disbelief is the only conclusion we have in common yet how we came to that conclusion or why differs immensely.

My vested interest in sharing my disbelief is purely b/c I invested so much time into my search for truth. Since I have this knowledge, I hope it helps others out of the cognitive dissonance they are faced with if it is of concern to them or if they are questioning.

Disbelief seems the rational conclusion for now as based on the bible, its claims never seem to materialise. Until it does, this is the logical default to adhere to.

I question everything. I do not accept the Out of Africa evolution conclusions as migration north would not cause black folk to turn white, get blue eyes and blonde straight hair. It does not explain dark Eskimos where the sun don't shine for half the year and the other half is so weak that it would not cause skin pigmentation changes. Even millions of years of evolution does not explain how these very observable changes occurred. Take a latitude and look at the cultures that line up with say Japan. You have mixtures in features including skin tone. The common denominator is that we can breed with one another as the plumbing is sort of the same but not always identical.

Likewise, the biblical explanations are even more dubious and provide no answers to this question at all. I have my own ideas of how this perhaps happened.

Perhaps you have some insecurity issues and I am guessing you are still young. We all had that as youngsters trying to forge a way and identity for ourselves. It gets better over time. Challenging your paradigms is a good thing and you should follow the evidence where it leads. You will find more questions than answers as no single person has an all encompassing reason for what they believe. Religion and religious beliefs are easy as it postulates a god in control for that we do not understand. You will get used to the idea of "I don't know" and you can also add "neither do you" to the die hard folk that claim to "know" everything.

At the end of the day it is like nipples, we all have them as we have opinions. The only area where this is not so is in the fields of science. Conclusions here are derived using rational evaluation of evidence and peer acceptance and the ability to repeat whatever derived the conclusion with consistency. Science deals with stuff that directly affects our lives daily.

The "other stuff" is really of no real consequence. If you find yourself in a situation where belief is sort of an unwritten requirement, it is easy to fake it. Most folk fake it anyway.

Pretty much like the matrix. Once you have woken up, they flush you from the system.

Behind all the veneers of false piety are good and bad people.
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:47 AM
 
624 posts, read 903,396 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post

The Fray - You Found Me - YouTube

I can personally understand this sentiment. Guy is singing "where were you?" when his gf died. Look, every religion I know of comes from an emotional desire. For example:

Islam - Pride (Submission is seen as a solution to pride, but they also ironically have a problem with it, since the Quran is seen as the final word)
Christianity - Altruism (There's a powerful desire to save people, even people who don't wanna be saved)
Fundamentalism - Fear (You're going to hell unless you change your ways)
Jews - Duty (Logic as an emotional state. The world adds up because of the law given by God)

You get the idea, and it pretty much extends for every religion.

And at times, I've seriously considered becoming an atheist. But for me, no it isn't logical. It's emotional.

Atheism - Despair (At my worst feelings, I most seriously believe that God might not be out there. Why wouldn't someone like that stop bad stuff from happening to those I love? That sorta thing. But then I realize that it is precisely because God is out there, and cruel beyond measure that my loved ones die while I continue to live on and on despite almost dying of cold/exposure/food poison/almost crashing into stuff in my car/even trying to work myself to death isn't working)

But atheism because it "just seemed rational"? No, that sounds like an excuse.

Thoughts?
Why is fundamentalism a different category from Christianity?
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:57 AM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 39,821,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post

What I don't grasp, is exactly what I just said. I can't buy that a person could have no emotional reasons at all for embracing atheism.
I have never believed in a god. Ever. There is no emotion involved in that belief. I simply have never seen evidence to make me think one actually exists.

Do you believe in bigfoot or magic elves? Were your emotions involved in those decisions or did you logically come to the conclusion?

And that's fine that you "can't buy" it. To each his own. But don't expect others to go along with that.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:05 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
8,388 posts, read 8,348,474 times
Reputation: 4070
Default I'm OK You're OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post

I can personally understand this sentiment. Guy is singing "where were you?" when his gf died. Look, every religion I know of comes from an emotional desire. For example:

Islam - Pride (Submission is seen as a solution to pride, but they also ironically have a problem with it, since the Quran is seen as the final word)
Christianity - Altruism (There's a powerful desire to save people, even people who don't wanna be saved)
Fundamentalism - Fear (You're going to hell unless you change your ways)
Jews - Duty (Logic as an emotional state. The world adds up because of the law given by God)

You get the idea, and it pretty much extends for every religion.

And at times, I've seriously considered becoming an atheist. But for me, no it isn't logical. It's emotional.

Atheism - Despair (At my worst feelings, I most seriously believe that God might not be out there. Why wouldn't someone like that stop bad stuff from happening to those I love? That sorta thing. But then I realize that it is precisely because God is out there, and cruel beyond measure that my loved ones die while I continue to live on and on despite almost dying of cold/exposure/food poison/almost crashing into stuff in my car/even trying to work myself to death isn't working)

But atheism because it "just seemed rational"? No, that sounds like an excuse.

Thoughts?

If believing in deities helps get you through your life, that's OK.

If not believing in deities gets millions of others through life, that's OK.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:27 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,944,384 times
Reputation: 1804
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
::Sigh:: There is nothing logical about disbelief in God.
It is perfectly logical not to believe in something when there's no reason to. That the best you can present are word games to try and distract from this is just more evidence that there's no substantive reason to change one's mind.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:30 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,944,384 times
Reputation: 1804
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
What I don't grasp, is exactly what I just said. I can't buy that a person could have no emotional reasons at all for embracing atheism.
Why? It's just a story someone else happens to believe. Do you have an emotional reason for not embracing belief in unicorns?

Quote:
Humans are emotional critters, we could conceivably make purely logical decisions (example: the job pays well, so despite a personal problem or a death in the family, there should be no reason to take off work) but generally that's not what happens (I'm having a personal issue, death in the family, maybe the boss just didn't bother to call me, therefore I'm not going). We instead often make the most insane decisions, so (a) either atheism is somehow inhuman or (b) atheism is fairly human and fairly easily based off our desires, but much like couples citing money as the most common reason for breakup (there are actually other emotional reasons too but so as to not appear irrational, these are never brought up), the reason for being an atheist being personal hurts the case that it is a purely "logical" system.

Human beings are emotional as well as logical.

Arequipa, it's not that I'm "not yet ready" to go atheist. I will never be ready. I came upon my decision to be both by equally strong logical (I could argue either using scientific theory or anything from Cartesian to evil genius philosophy, to outright comparison of religion to geological events. It makes sense to me) and emotional (why it personally means something to me) reasons. So I expect the same of any system, belief or disbelief, that I come across.

I no longer goto church. I met this girl, and she basically made me question what I was doing with my life. Here I was, going to the temple of a religion I didn't care about. Look, someone long ago died for people. But really, what does that have to do with me? My life sucks, and it didn't matter how good or charitable I acted, nobody liked me enough to want to be my lover. Worse, I realized one former priest, who I was currently working under as a landscaper, was actually using me. So faced with all this, I stopped going to church. I don't believe in churches or priests, I believe in the "in spirit and in truth" idea that if there's religion, it's found with people instead. So I "believe" in people I care about. I'd expect the same personal history of atheism, even if Dawkins himself tried to persuade me.

Btw, this is my point. What about Dawkins' life made him become an atheist?

There you have it. That's the reason.

To me, having an idea that you aren't personally involved in, is sorta like trying to sell a product that you don't believe in. That's what I'm asking basically. If atheism is based on reason, then... what's your reason? I fit facts together like a puzzle, and figure if they jive together, but without the person's past, it's incomplete.
That's a lot of words to rationalize the fact that there's no reason to believe in god but you want to anyway. But just because you're making an emotional illogical decision about the subject doesn't mean the subject is inherently immune to logical consideration.
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Old 11-21-2013, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,119,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
I can't buy that a person could have no emotional reasons at all for embracing atheism.
I believe I understand your point.

I am not an Atheist because it is logical. I look at the world around me and I see things happening and they seem to be the result of some kind of natural forces at work. The idea of some kind of supernatural force never occurred to me.

That's how my instincts perceive the world around me. You may see things differently. No problem.
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Old 11-21-2013, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Florida
4,516 posts, read 3,926,429 times
Reputation: 9930
I think the difference here is some of us - like me - who were not raised at all in religion don't have a need to an emotional attachment that is larger than ourselves and call it 'god'. We may have that sort of emotional attachment to something else - say we are passionate about raising funds for a certain cause or volunteering locally and doing those things add to our lives in a real and personal way.

But when I look at religion I have no sense of emotionalism about it. It's an interesting subject to me - such as some might find reading and learning about birds or cooking styles are to others. I really enjoy crafting, when I have the time. I have a whole cabinet in my 'office' space at home with various craft tools. I enjoy going to craft classes and talking to others who enjoy the same craft. To me, this is my 'thing' that I have just for me (no one else in my family crafts) and it gives me something to look forward to, something that's an outlet away from the usual grind of work/housework/etc. and was a way for me to have 'adult' time when my child was little.
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Sto'Vo'Kor
328 posts, read 407,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
The lack of belief in a deity is as rational as a lack of belief in leprechauns.

Your desperate need to be part of 'something bigger' has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with your preening self-absorption.

I'm alive.
Not only am I alive, I have had the good fortune to be born in a liberal democracy of the 20th century, amidst the security of a stable society, modern medicine, and a widespread protection of rights, education and employment and food and shelter almost for the taking.
Despair?
What pitiable nonsense.
The joys of simply living are manifest.
A fine meal, a walk in the woods.
Interacting with my children, making love to my wife.
Playing with one of my cats, watching the sunset, reading a good book, riding a bike.
Those things are sublime, all of them.

But for you, that's not enough. You demand more. You demand some cosmic plan of which you are an integral part, with a grand orchestrater who has an important part all for you to play. That's nothing more than raging narcissism.

Standing ovation, ma'am or sir.
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