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Old 11-23-2013, 03:08 AM
 
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Nice post. You have in mind the brothers Karamazov. But in fact 'Without God all is permitted' is never said there and the musings about God an nihilism are god writing, but like those all who don't understand atheism (even if, like Dostoyevsky, they are doubters themselves) is confused and not very helpful in the end.

I checked and the exchange between Mitya and Ratikin goes something like "'what will it be like for men (if you do that)? If there's no God and no afterlife, doesn't that mean that men can do whatever they feel like doing?"

From what I read, Dostoyevsky had heard this idea, common amongst theists of all stripe, that without belief that a god will punish in the afterlife everyone who does not behave morally, there is no reason to do so. Again, from what I read, he, lacking access to the internet and atheist think -tanks, never worked it out that this argument fails under scrutiny.

Yes, in the prima face, it does seem that the individual can do what they like and if they get away with it, there is no divine retribution to worry about. But we have seen many examples of immoral behaviour approved (apparently) by God in the Bible, in the past and in the present. The thread on gay marriage in Christianity is thought provoking. What is immoral - homosexuality or the persecution of it?

It has been well pointed out that, if they suddenly came to disbelieve in God, would theists then go on the rampage? In fact deconverts generally do not. If they did, I would suggest that it is because they have no alternative moral structure to fall back on.

It is the case that atheists do have a moral structure - a humanist one. In fact, that is the only one we have ever had and religion has hi- jacked it for its own purposes, fiddling in amongst the core values we all agree on, having worked them out over centuries of community living, a lot of commandments and directives peculiar to the interests of the religion, relying on the fallacy: "If not killing and not stealing is obviously moral, then all the other stuff must be right, too".(I think that's the fallacy of generalization).

It has also been observed that it leads to a self -contradiction:

"If there is no God and no divine retribution, then atheists will do as they like."

"So the only reason you don't do as you like is because you fear divine retribution?"

I won't put words into the theist mouth, but you can see where this is going. Theists accused of only acting morally because they want to get into heaven, deny that. If so they must be acting morally because it is Right. That's what we do.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-23-2013 at 03:43 AM..
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Old 11-23-2013, 03:58 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
3,067 posts, read 2,105,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Beloved Matt, I've heard the "without god" line before, and now it falls on tired ears.

You say I'm entirely wrong, but I doubt you understand all of your fellow beings. For a lot (dare I say: the majority) of atheists, atheism is nothing and should be nothing. To them, atheism should eventually be classified along with non-stamp collecting and aunicornism. Their lack of choosing among the god believes is as much their emotional centerpoint as nonvegitarianism is the centerpoint for meat eaters.

Why would monotheism dispermitt anything? With our Choosing, Designing, and Recrafting of Gods, all is permitted. The mind is a powerful thing, it can make a hell out of heaven, and a heaven out of hell.

Let Theism not stand in your way, because there truly are countless theist religions, denominations, and interpretations. By all means, permit yourself to be free. Rise up against us, and be plucked from your place by the power of the society we have set up around you. Or work, work within it to infiltrate it and rule it, and be brought to humility by its stumbling blocks, loose yourself in your own insincerity.

I HATE the fear of truth and the fear of being wrong. My Agnosticism is not the centerpoint of my emotions, my humanity is... and I would hope all the people would see that.
The without god line is simply another way of pointing to Hume's fact-value distinction. Another way of pointing to arbitrariness. If I rose up and became a serial killer, which ultimately I consider as un-condemnable as anything else, how would you feel about that? Not going to; I have plenty of other ideas (all of which are also as logically unjustifiable).

Just saying that our worldview condemns us to nihilism/relativism. It just does. And that is not necessarily (**** the euphemisms...when I say not necessarily I mean not at all) conducive to daily life, as one is constantly bombarded with stimuli for which one would like to make a value judgment, but logically...
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Old 11-23-2013, 04:28 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
3,067 posts, read 2,105,840 times
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Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
At your own peril. It isn't illogical from a clinical perspective to understand that need to blame someone or something for one's problems, the question is, is it rational. I would argue that it isn't particularly when the actor is supposed to be some mythical god creature. Yes it is easier to blame or give credit to god for tornados, tsunamis and and other devastating natural disasters that befall mankind and while we have grown past burning witches and devils, those that blame god, still have't approached the issue in a rational and objective manner.



Say what?

We would go insane if we didn't have an entity or blind forces to credit of blame...seriously?!? You really can't be serious.. can you?!?!? If a tornado came today, destroyed my home, killed my family, as a sane rational human being do you think that I would spend my time blaming god or Mother nature?!? What freaking purpose would that serve? What sort of comfort much less sanity would I derive from such behavior?



This is just getting sillier by the sentence. I would respond in detail if there weren't so many points that are so off base, errant and just mystifying in their illogic.
You seem to be unduly preoccupied (at least rhetorically) with "natural disasters". I'm talking about the sum totality of existence, of which "natural disasters" are a small (for now, as we're at, what 385 ppm) , unavoidable (also for now, for the opposite reason...can be alleviated, theoretically) fragment. Your ??!!!?!?!?! sequences suggest nothing if not, eh, emotion as opposed to pure, abstract, ultimately fictitious reason.

Although I do not agree with everything the man says, I'd recommend reading James Lovelock, creator of the Gaia Hypothesis, and everything that went into the making of that. Like the best religious creeds, his ecological understanding is best understood metaphorically (since he professes an understanding of the earth as a single living unit...which it is not...but for practical purposes, perhaps it is best understood that way)...yet it can be transformative.

The idea is that we and all other life forms interact, everything is an equation, at the end of the day. My IQ may be very high but it isn't high enough to yet elaborate. My brother, who is 18 and who I've often described as a "more extreme version of me", intends to study atmospheric science and will probably be the world's foremost expert on this **** in a few years.

(or not, but I felt like saying that)

Edit to say, no, it's not logical to blame god as opposed to mother nature. But "mother nature" is a horrible misnomer. Never use that term again. We ourselves are mother and father nature...we affect things just as much as any other organism or as any other preexisting process. Well, not as much--more, in many cases. Extinction rates are skyrocketing thanks to us. I am no environmentalist...I guess at some level I am a humanist...I just try to stay attuned to the facts. We're basically a self-aware product of evolution, perhaps unprecedented universally (but probably not, given the math involved here), that has simply "accelerated things" upon the home planet from which we have not yet escaped....

And if you were to ask me, a former wannabe professional poker player (and therefore a gambler at some level), I'd take even 1:1 odds on the extinction of our species within the next millennium.

Would you?

Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 11-23-2013 at 04:53 AM..
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Old 11-23-2013, 04:49 AM
 
34,356 posts, read 41,436,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

The reason I believe people believe in atheism, is ironically the same reason people turn to God. They encounter sadness. Instead of saying "I have hope some God will help them after life" they said "there's no hope! All is lost..."

Thoughts?
In my opinion atheism is not a belief its more of a non belief, many seem to imply atheism as an alternate religion when in fact its comprised of people who dont care about religion, have very little to say about religion,dont believe in supreme being/s, dont go to church view the bible as a bunch of boring fairy tales and find discussing religion about as exciting as watching paint dry.
atheists basically dont care.
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Old 11-23-2013, 05:39 AM
 
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You are quite right. Atheism is non -belief no a belief or even 'belief -system'. And church is rather boring. At least on the occasions I've been, the reaction on coming out was 'Well, glad that's over'.

However, there is a rider or caveat to 'atheists don't care'. We don't. Not about God. Not at all.

We may care about the historical aspects of the Bible. If any

We may care about the various arguments puit forward for God, Bible or religion.

And we may very much care about the pervasive influence that the religious and their representative organizations have on our society.

We care about that so much that we put in many unpaid and unthanked hours fighting to remove it from our society.
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Old 11-23-2013, 07:04 AM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 39,747,775 times
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Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post

Edit to say, no, it's not logical to blame god as opposed to mother nature. But "mother nature" is a horrible misnomer. Never use that term again.
Luckily you don't get to decide who says what.
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Old 11-23-2013, 07:27 AM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 39,747,775 times
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Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
you're right, Chris Christie
I have no idea what you are trying to say.
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Old 11-23-2013, 07:33 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
3,067 posts, read 2,105,840 times
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Post to attract attention to the second-last post.
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Old 11-23-2013, 07:46 AM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 39,747,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
you're right, Chris Christie

Edit to say: you have 16k posts on this forum. I've read maybe 100 of them (the ones that appear in this subforum). All of those posts make you appear to be of average-ish intelligence. I imagine you to be the typical Jersey nuisance I've encountered when I've entered your horrid state in the past...maybe you're better than that, maybe not. You do claim to be a lifelong resident, for what that's worth. I couldn't care less about your supposed intuitive atheism if it results in producing presumably mediocre people like you.

Make a better claim for yourself...or continue to post in the NFL forum about your preferred escapist fantasies.
Are you drunk?
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Old 11-23-2013, 08:03 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
3,067 posts, read 2,105,840 times
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Originally Posted by manderly6 View Post
Are you drunk?
Are you sober?
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