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Old 12-08-2013, 11:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Ovcatto who sees pretty much the opposite, that knowledge and logic actually acts to enhance beauty,
and myself and I think Arequipa, who still are able to appreciate beauty regardless of how much we know and understand about the world.
I'm simplifying obviously but I think I got that right?
Not quite, I run a public relations production company and I truly believe, as do many of our clients, that I have a appreciation for beauty, beauty that has nothing to do with the science of it. I work with graphic artist, photographers, video folks (I cant bring myself to say videographer, there was no need of a new name) and writers on a daily basis who produce beautiful work all the time, so I am subjective, in the artistic sense, on a daily basis, so is like I can't appreciate beauty for the sake of it. But this isn't a thread about the subjectivity or lack thereof in art appreciation.

Quote:
Nobody is wrong here,
Well if that is limited to the two named above.

Quote:
One person who understood this well was a mathematician called Eugene Wigner. He was one of those geniuses who understood the workings of the universe better than most and is known for his work in quantum mechanics, and coined the 'the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences'. His deep understanding mathematics and how it could be used to explain physical laws of nature to him was all the more wonderful and at the same time all the more mysterious. He said "The full meaning of life, the collective meaning of all human desires, is fundamentally a mystery beyond our grasp... I even feel a certain honor to be associated with such a mystery."
I believe that aptly summarizes the point I was trying to make above. So getting back to the original topic, if I may, the mysteries that science makes plain and then discovers anew, has consistently revealed forces greater than any human created god, and that revelation, if I may, reduces one mystery to myth, while providing a new mystery far greater and far more intriguing than than which it destroyed.

Which brings me back to the, for lack of a better term, Luddite comment that sparked this sidebar:
at some point in the near future we may have to take seriously the question about whether or not to try to institute a (surely futile by that point, but) moratorium on scientific research, so as to try and preserve some of the "wonder" in life.
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:33 PM
 
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Yes, specifically Cruithne & Catto. If I may follow up the Beethoven simile, there are those in the musical world who claim that they would rather not know the background to the various works or it would spoil the enjoyment. I suppose the same could be said about Egyptology. While there is some truth in that, the more I have understood about these subjects, the more the products whether symphonies or statues gains greatly in appreciation of the beauty for knowing the story behind one of the rather identical pharonic statues or how this or that musical work was constructed.

Knowledge in the long run enhances appreciation of beauty rather than spoils it. I like the example of Keats who feared that knowledge of a subject would ruin the mystery and beauty. It may ruin the mystery, but anyone who enjoys uncomprehending bogglement for its own sake gets little respect from me. As for the beauty, it was pointed out that, in one of his poems when he drools over the beauty of the evening star, he lets slip that he is actually aware that it is a planet in orbit around the sun. That bit of understanding does not seem to have noticeably spoiled his open - mouthed admiration of Hesperus.
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Old 12-08-2013, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Religion is man made. Anyone can be antireligion. In fact some protestants hate the Catholic religion.

Everytime I hear an Atheist talking about Atheism they are simply putting down religion. That is not atheism.
You're terribly confused.
Quote:
Why not talk about the cause of the Big Bang. The creation of something out of nothing.
OK.

You go first.

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Old 12-08-2013, 02:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
You go first.

Let's not.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Not quite, I run a public relations production company and I truly believe, as do many of our clients, that I have a appreciation for beauty, beauty that has nothing to do with the science of it. I work with graphic artist, photographers, video folks (I cant bring myself to say videographer, there was no need of a new name) and writers on a daily basis who produce beautiful work all the time, so I am subjective, in the artistic sense, on a daily basis, so is like I can't appreciate beauty for the sake of it. But this isn't a thread about the subjectivity or lack thereof in art appreciation.
I apologise then, because from the way I understood you before you seemed to be saying that, for you knowledge was essential: Perhaps this is where some of the confusion in the thread has arisen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
If anything, knowledge is essential to the appreciation of beauty. Understanding the process of creation can be at times far more impressive than simply the end result. Place two Katana swords next to each other, one made by a Japanese master swordsmith and one manufactured by a machine. They may appear to be identical but when understand the process of their creation, the sword made by the master craftsmen whose intimate knowledge of metallurgy, and possesses the ability to shape and craft a piece of iron ore into a work of art, increases the swords beauty, and value a thousand time more. When just listen to a blues guitarist like Lighten Hopkins play a song, I am viscerally enthralled but when I come to understand the theory of how the song was played, the combination of chords, arpeggios and manipulations of strings to seamlessly bend notes into another, my visceral reaction is transformed in to abject appreciation do to my knowledge of how the song was produce. Knowledge informs our subjective sense of beauty, it never detracts.

As for wonder, wonder drives us to understand to explore to reach an higher state of appreciation....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post

Knowledge is inseparable from the true appreciation of beauty.
No matter and no worries, I'm not here to argue with you, I'm here to I agree with you and I think you have clarified your position where nothing confirms your atheism, as much as a look at our universe. I would be the same.
I think we have to recognise this is not necessarily the same for all people.
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:09 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 32,132,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I
I think we have to recognise this is not necessarily the same for all people.
I suppose we could just say, well everybody opinion is valid, sing Kumbaya but then what would we have to do with ourselves here? How boring the Atheist forum would be if we let it turn into a mutual admiration society

Anyway, it wasn't just a difference of opinion that lit the flame on this thread.
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:16 PM
 
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PS - spend a little time over in the main forum reading the threads on evolution, or creationism and then let's talk about those who cherish mystery and the ignorance that goes with it and those who don't.
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