U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-28-2013, 12:32 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,324,168 times
Reputation: 1786

Advertisements

Hi llgg

First off you must know that catholics are not reeeeeally christians as they are the sect where the whole false profit and auntie-christ will arise from.

I mean just look at those sexy school uniforms of the catholic schools and how that has become a fetish.

Ok that was just me trying to inject humour.

In my part of the world, catholics are traditional believers and you will see the same folk attending the local club/bar and partaking of "ungodly communion"

It does seem that in the US, there are some fundie branches of catholics and they do appear to try and influence politics.

Like others have said, it is the bible literalists and evangelists than get most of the AA scorn.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-28-2013, 01:10 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by llgg View Post
I've never encountered these type of hateful churches personally.
Quite often they hide their hatred and bigotry quite well. They do this using mantras and slogans that present their hatred in a more dilute palatable form.

Take the phrase "Hate the Sin and Not the Sinner" for example. This is used to pretend that they have nothing against homosexuals per se, it is just their religion prohibits certain types of activity. The effect of this hatred and bigotry is essentially the same, but the form in which it is served up simply sounds more palatable.

Commonly Christians will tell me that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality per se, but there is something very wrong with sex before marriage. They do this, of course, while prohibiting homosexuals from marrying. So in a round about way they are achieving their anti homosexual agenda in an "Awww shucks isnt that unfortunate, but we dont make the rules, god does" kind of way.

You talk about your churches specific teachings on things like hell. The obvious question is.... what are these teachings based on? What source of data or evidence or reasoning has your church got access to that the rest have missed? Why is your churches teachings on the matter "correct" while the rest are false. Surely the churches who are teaching that EVERYONE is going to hell except members of their particular church are teaching this as true off the back of exactly as much (that is to say: none) evidence as yours is?

It would appear that quite simply peoples are establishing a church, throwing together a set of teachings that subjectively pleases them at the time, and then teaching these things to their "flocks" as if they are actually true. And that that does not give people like yourself pause is an eternal bafflement for me.

If the Catholic church itself has a central core set of tenets and doctrines and "Canons" then how does a church presume to teach something different to that.... while still calling itself a Catholic Church exactly? Is that not like introducing a hockey stick into american football, changing half the rules, and then still calling it american football?

Quote:
Originally Posted by llgg View Post
There are certainly many problems with the Catholic Church historically and currently, but on the day-to-day of an average person like myself, it's just this kind of boring stuff.
Which also baffles me. It is often atheists or people from other faiths who stand up against the horrors of a church like the Catholic Church. Too many people INTERNALLY simply go about their day to day, pay the proper subscription fees and dues, and make the proper prostrations when called upon to do so in mass etc.

Should it not be incumbent upon the people inside such an organisation, that is the actual paying members, to acknowledge the cancers within the association and work internally to say "No. No more of this in my name. This has to change"?

Yet time and time again, especially in my home country of apparently Catholic Ireland, it is people external to the church that do this. While people internal simply put their head in the sand entirely or, worse, make excuses and panderings to justify or excuse the sickness inside.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 01:20 AM
 
12,540 posts, read 12,543,523 times
Reputation: 28901
Ex-Catholic here. If there was one thing I heard many times growing up, it was "love the sinner, hate the sin." That was from the nuns in my school and my parents.

The Roman Catholic Church does indeed teach that homosexuality is an abomination. In fact, that was what drove me away. My ex-husband and I were looking for a church to marry in, and on the way out of one, we saw some brochures for people to take a bus trip down to Florida to protest Gay Days at Disney. Given that one of our ushers was gay, we decided not to get married in the Church. No way would we have him see that in the lobby on our big day.

However, I like what Pope Francis is doing, and how he is reaching out to everyone, straight, gay, believer, non-believer, and I really like what he said about money this week.

At any rate, the rank-and-file Catholic in America is not what I think of when I think of hateful believers. When I think of hateful believers, I think of Southern Baptists, born-again Christians, Pentacostals, and any and all evangelists and evangelicals. While there are exceptions and everyone is an individual, on the whole, a more bigoted, sexist, self-righteous group of people I've never met, and I want nothing to do with 99% of them. They're toxic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 05:30 AM
 
17,853 posts, read 12,236,080 times
Reputation: 4113
Quote:
Originally Posted by llgg View Post
Thank you for your responses. It does help me understand better. I really do appreciate it.

As far as the other topic of the larger Catholic Church goes, like I said, there are problems there. Not defending those issues. And as far as money goes, our congregation is so poor our money stays at our little church, nothing is funneled up. So I'm not supporting that.

If I'm being honest, I'm not worried about any of your souls, but I mean that in the nicest way possible ; ) I just honestly doubt any Atheist is going to 'hell.' I wouldn't want to love any god that is petty and mean, looking for reasons to send people to hell. If that's how he really is, then I'll probably be burning next to you. I think most people are good and fine just the way they are. If I'm wrong about the whole God thing, oh well, I wasted some of my time. But honestly, like 90% of my life is wasting time so what's difference. Wish I were completely joking there : )

Thanks again.
Just a little experiment. Try thinking of god as female rather than male for the next 21 days - and see what happens.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 05:39 AM
 
17,853 posts, read 12,236,080 times
Reputation: 4113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110 View Post
Ex-Catholic here. If there was one thing I heard many times growing up, it was "love the sinner, hate the sin." That was from the nuns in my school and my parents.

.
Isn't it funny that that phrase is not found in the Bible at all but was actually a quote by Gandhi? "D
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,097,133 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
All the Catholics I have ever known have basically ignored doing what they were told to do by the church, even though they are all regular church goers and live their lives as they see fit.
I think this is the crux of the matter whether we are talking about Catholics or most any other moderate or liberal Christian group. Aside from rabid conservative Catholics and other fundamentalists, there is a disconnect between the often deplorable positions and actions of the denomination, and the everyday laity. In the OPs church, that there are openly gay people in leadership is an expression of how at the local and sometimes regional and national levels, American Catholics ignore the dictates of Rome, which if conscientiously applied, would not allow that kind of thing (at least, pre-Francis). And Francis himself is an example of the potential suppleness in church practice; he is making sweeping changes, but not really in doctrine, just in attitude and emphasis and which battles to pick. This is all great, and he is a breath of fresh air, but it doesn't begin to address the need for the RCC to disown many official positions which are noxious to me as an atheist and to many theists as well.

This also explains part of the appeal of fundamentalist / literalist / conservative Christian denominations and sects. It's an impulse toward consistency. If the Bible is actually god's word and you interpret god's word to say that, say, homosexuality is an abomination, then the church's position should be the member's position and any member not conforming to that should not be a member. Lifelong fundamentalists are in my experience baffled by, say, Catholics who use unapproved contraception methods or encourage openly gay people to serve or who do not regularly go to confession. Fundamentalists belong to their particular church because they believe and try to practice its teachings. They therefore assume that a Catholic practices all of Catholicism. They can't understand why anything less is tolerated and accepted.

What fundies don't understand is that most people hold their religious beliefs rather loosely and don't take them that seriously. Much of what atheism engages with is this fundamentalist rigidity which is far more dangerous because in an ideal world they would want to establish a theocracy that runs according to their dogma and rules, and they would impose it on the rest of us by force.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Tampa, FL
2,637 posts, read 10,948,575 times
Reputation: 3547
Quote:
Originally Posted by llgg View Post
As far as the other topic of the larger Catholic Church goes, like I said, there are problems there. Not defending those issues.
You aren't actively defending those issues, but you are condoning them by remaining within the church and pretending that those issues don't reflect back on you. They do. The systematic sheltering of pedophiles is not just some meaningless boring scandal, this is abuse of the most fundamental sort - the ruining of the lives of uncounted children by supposedly holy men. By the very men that I used to believe were at least deeply ethical and trustworthy even if I did not share their religious beliefs. I am appalled by the actions of the Catholic church in this matter and I can't even look at a priest without feeling sick to my stomach. If you are a good Catholic it is your duty to protest these practices and do all you can to end it, but it seems like you are just shrugging it off like "oh well".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 08:10 AM
 
1,420 posts, read 2,639,823 times
Reputation: 2244
Quote:
Originally Posted by llgg View Post
is this the kind of congregation that is seen as 'hateful' or is that the outlandish type of church that protests abortion clinics or says so-and-so is going to hell, etc.? I realize on a fundamental level why an Atheist completely disagrees with any church. But that's not what I'm addressing here. I'm just trying to understand better if there's a delineation of extreme churches vs. a church like the one I go to. Or are we all viewed as hating a bunch of people? Thank you for helping me understand better.
These questions can be asked of anyone. You could post this on the Basketball forum. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god. You're essentially asking if it is wrong for [any] organization to do hateful or illegal, violent things. Most people, atheist, [a basketball fan] or anybody would think it is wrong.

Last edited by Cheektowaga_Chester; 11-28-2013 at 08:31 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Niflheim
1,302 posts, read 1,675,650 times
Reputation: 1065
Quote:
Originally Posted by llgg View Post
Hi. I'm Roman Catholic and I suppose I don't belong here, but I'm sincerely looking for an Atheist viewpoint so I thought I'd try. Please pardon me if I really shouldn't be posting this. I'll remove the question if that's the case.

I've read some comments and articles written by Atheists over the years. While of course there is a variety of opinions and points-of-view, there is a general opinion that many Christian churches hold a hatred for certain groups (e.g., homosexual people, non-Christians, basically those who don't conform to a narrow way of life). It's made me think of the churches I've belonged to and perhaps I've been lucky or sheltered, but besides some extreme churches I've read about, I've never encountered these type of hateful churches personally. Our ordained deacon is openly gay, as is our choir director, and many parishioners. In class it's taught that while there is apparently a hell, we don't think anyone is necessarily there. We don't believe that non-Catholics go to hell or are condemned in any way. Our parishioners work on two things mainly as a group: stopping torture of people and assisting those who are ill at the hospital next door, no matter their faith/lack thereof. There are certainly many problems with the Catholic Church historically and currently, but on the day-to-day of an average person like myself, it's just this kind of boring stuff. So, here's the question: is this the kind of congregation that is seen as 'hateful' or is that the outlandish type of church that protests abortion clinics or says so-and-so is going to hell, etc.? I realize on a fundamental level why an Atheist completely disagrees with any church. But that's not what I'm addressing here. I'm just trying to understand better if there's a delineation of extreme churches vs. a church like the one I go to. Or are we all viewed as hating a bunch of people? Thank you for helping me understand better.
Not hateful, but doing all they do because of an agenda.
It is not because it is the right thing to do, it is because they think they will be "rewarded" in the afterlife.
In my mind that should not be the motive for anything....what may or may not happen after death.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 09:27 AM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,245,374 times
Reputation: 2619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Type O Negative View Post
Not hateful, but doing all they do because of an agenda.
It is not because it is the right thing to do, it is because they think they will be "rewarded" in the afterlife.
In my mind that should not be the motive for anything....what may or may not happen after death.
Precisely. Just like I used to ask Christians who said they loved Jesus/God: "If the deal were changed where Jesus/God was in Hell, would you want to go there instead?"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top