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Old 11-28-2013, 02:18 PM
 
77 posts, read 198,654 times
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I'm going to be honest here-- there's a lot of sexual abuse in this world. I have a grandfather who raped my aunt. Their was a child molester at my sister's YWCA and her high school. In my middle school, I had a teacher make a blatant pass at me. None of it is okay. But let's not pretend sexual abuse lives in the Catholic Church alone. Sadly, you probably know a child molester/rapist right now. We probably all do. They get away with it all too often and there are people who cover it up. My grandmother didn't turn my grandfather in. The high school protected their teacher. When I complained about my teacher I was told I was 'imagining' it. Remember Sandusky? But if that school had a program I was interested in, I'd be open to attending. If we truly started cutting out every organization that had an abuser and covered it up, we're going to be making a long list. That's what predators do-- they find places they can hide and do their vile things. Hospitals, kids' organizations, single moms, schools, etc. have all been known targets.

Again, none of it is okay, but really, if we're not going to be hypocritical than we need to walk away from ALL groups that have had an abuser in its ranks.
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Old 11-28-2013, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Tampa, FL
2,637 posts, read 10,946,949 times
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You didn't answer my question. If child rape is just par for the course, where IS that line? The one you said if it was crossed you would leave? I'm sorry, I just can't imagine much worse than sheltering multiple perpetrators of sexual assault against children. I can't believe that you are playing that off like it's just a part of life we have to accept. And not only that, but that we should look to such people to administer our innermost turmoils, to guide us through the most trying times of our lives?

What I get from your attitude is something along the lines of, "Oh come now, we all know that priests will be priests, tee hee!"
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Old 11-28-2013, 03:11 PM
 
14,790 posts, read 14,062,428 times
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Originally Posted by tilli View Post
Well good grief, where is that line? It wasn't crossed by multiple incidents of sexual assault of innocent children? It wasn't crossed by covering up evidence of same? By protecting the perpetrators instead of the victims? What could the institution possibly do that WOULD cross that line for you?
This is the reason, I no longer consider myself Catholic. After 10 years of Catholic education, holy communion et al. No thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by llgg View Post
I'm going to be honest here-- there's a lot of sexual abuse in this world. I have a grandfather who raped my aunt. Their was a child molester at my sister's YWCA and her high school. In my middle school, I had a teacher make a blatant pass at me. None of it is okay. But let's not pretend sexual abuse lives in the Catholic Church alone. Sadly, you probably know a child molester/rapist right now. We probably all do. They get away with it all too often and there are people who cover it up. My grandmother didn't turn my grandfather in. The high school protected their teacher. When I complained about my teacher I was told I was 'imagining' it. Remember Sandusky? But if that school had a program I was interested in, I'd be open to attending. If we truly started cutting out every organization that had an abuser and covered it up, we're going to be making a long list. That's what predators do-- they find places they can hide and do their vile things. Hospitals, kids' organizations, single moms, schools, etc. have all been known targets.

Again, none of it is okay, but really, if we're not going to be hypocritical than we need to walk away from ALL groups that have had an abuser in its ranks.
I understand and agree, these predators will find places that will give them access to children. What is intolerable, is this organisation's worldwide push to hide these crimes and move them to international postings.

There is a royal commission occurring in Australia, investigating these crimes. It includes all denominations, and governmental care. By far, the worst organisation is the catholic church.... . For these reasons, I no longer consider myself catholic, nor will the church ever get a cent out of me.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/abuse_inquiry
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Old 11-28-2013, 03:25 PM
 
9,877 posts, read 6,747,934 times
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Originally Posted by tilli View Post
Well good grief, where is that line? It wasn't crossed by multiple incidents of sexual assault of innocent children? It wasn't crossed by covering up evidence of same? By protecting the perpetrators instead of the victims? What could the institution possibly do that WOULD cross that line for you?
The men that run the church may be corrupt. But, that is no reason to leave the church.
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Old 11-28-2013, 03:27 PM
 
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I think our difference of opinion comes from this-- you seem to think most priests are child molesters. There is no hard evidence, but it appears to be that the rate of priests who are child molesters is close to the general population. As a society, we have no hard data on how many people are child molesters in the US. We have educated cases. Based on those guesses and the data, I have no reason to believe that child molestation is more prevalent in the Catholic Church than other organizations. If a person is going to live in this world and join other people, I think we run the risk of rubbing elbows with some people who are doing awful things. I don't think that's most people, however, priests included. If any person is found to have molested a child or raped someone, my opinion is that they should spend life in prison. It would not incite giggles from me.

If I thought that there was an inordinate number of priests who were molesters that would crossing the line. I did wonder and I read all I could find on it, but there's not a ton of hard data. From what I could read, it seems that it's not more than most other organizations that have children. There's a lot of potential lines that could be a deal-breaker for me.

I realize that having a religion and coming to this board, it might cause some assumptions to be made. That's fair. All I can say is I didn't come here to debate or defend, but to learn from those who responded. So thank you for meeting me with honesty and fairness.
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Old 11-28-2013, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Tampa, FL
2,637 posts, read 10,946,949 times
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Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
The men that run the church may be corrupt. But, that is no reason to leave the church.
I disagree completely. That is absolutely a reason to leave the church. A very good reason. But what I want to know is, for those who disagree with me, what WOULD be reason enough to leave? Apparently diddling the children of parishioners is insufficient, so WHAT would be enough? Where DO you draw the line?
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Old 11-28-2013, 03:32 PM
 
9,877 posts, read 6,747,934 times
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Originally Posted by llgg View Post
I think our difference of opinion comes from this-- you seem to think most priests are child molesters. There is no hard evidence, but it appears to be that the rate of priests who are child molesters is close to the general population. As a society, we have no hard data on how many people are child molesters in the US. We have educated cases. Based on those guesses and the data, I have no reason to believe that child molestation is more prevalent in the Catholic Church than other organizations. If a person is going to live in this world and join other people, I think we run the risk of rubbing elbows with some people who are doing awful things. I don't think that's most people, however, priests included. If any person is found to have molested a child or raped someone, my opinion is that they should spend life in prison. It would not incite giggles from me.

If I thought that there was an inordinate number of priests who were molesters that would crossing the line. I did wonder and I read all I could find on it, but there's not a ton of hard data. From what I could read, it seems that it's not more than most other organizations that have children. There's a lot of potential lines that could be a deal-breaker for me.

I realize that having a religion and coming to this board, it might cause some assumptions to be made. That's fair. All I can say is I didn't come here to debate or defend, but to learn from those who responded. So thank you for meeting me with honesty and fairness.
This may be surprising, but the anti Catholic rhetoric is very similar to what the fundamentalist use in the Christianity forum.
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Old 11-28-2013, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Tampa, FL
2,637 posts, read 10,946,949 times
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Originally Posted by llgg View Post
I think our difference of opinion comes from this-- you seem to think most priests are child molesters. There is no hard evidence, but it appears to be that the rate of priests who are child molesters is close to the general population.
I have no idea how many child molesters are being sheltered by the Catholic church. Are there more than you'd expect based on statistics? I strongly suspect that there are, because the implicit trust gained by wearing that collar is an incredible boon to pedophiles. The Catholic church has made it their mission to make it difficult to prove instances of molestation by hiding the perpetrators as a matter of policy. Instead they impugn the reputations of victims. They close ranks and pretend it never happened, or if someone can prove that it did happen, then as you assert, it simply doesn't matter that it happened, it's just part of life, happens to everyone. But I happen to think that it does matter and should not happen to anyone, and I would never willingly belong to such a group and act like these actions by the highest authorities of my church don't reflect on me.

Imagine for a moment, that there was a charity that ran an after school program, and lots of parents trusted them and left their children there. And a lot of those kids were raped by the employees of that organization. And when those kids tried to report these crimes, instead of turning the employees over, corporate headquarters erased records of their wrongdoing, refused to cooperate with authorities, and transferred them to other jurisdictions, even other countries. To prevent bad publicity from prosecution. They put these predators into another community to do it all over again. They condoned their actions and enabled them to repeat those crimes on an entirely new group of unsuspecting children. This was not just one bad apple. This was a pattern of behavior that happened over and over, all over the world, enabled by the organization itself. Would you trust your kids with this program? Would you advise others to put their kids in this program because the chance of them getting raped couldn't be any higher than their chances just walking down the street?

Yes, sadly molestation happens. But good people should not condone the sexual assault of children as though it is perfectly acceptable to overlook such egregious crimes.

Last edited by tilli; 11-28-2013 at 04:04 PM..
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Old 11-28-2013, 04:21 PM
 
77 posts, read 198,654 times
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Originally Posted by tilli View Post
...or if someone can prove that it did happen, then as you assert, it simply doesn't matter that it happened, it's just part of life, happens to everyone.
I said that? Happens to everyone? Doesn't matter? I must have hit my head because I don't remember asserting those ideas. When I have known about child molestation (a child I knew who's was being molested by her mom's boyfriend) I reported it immediately and waited for the police with this girl. CPS was no help and so the girl, another teacher, and I sat down and talked about what we could do to get her in a safe place and we figured it out. When presented with the reality of this type of situation, that's how I deal with it.

My priest has virtually no contact with kids that I know of because our congregation is small and almost entirely adults. Most of his time is spent with patients and their families. Could he be a child molester? Yes. Any human being I know could be a child molester. If my priest is, then he got one of the worst congregations for an abuser because of the lack of kids.

I don't think you are going to understand my point of view. To me the RCC is huge with millions of people involved-- some sh*t is going to happen. The RCC handled this not just badly, but in an 'evil' way. Why protect these monsters? Their actions are vile. I think there we agree. But I think abuse is all too prevalent and often covered up in many organizations. Maybe this viewpoint comes from working in social services, but I've seen the underbelly time and time again. This is a human problem to me and finds it way into many parts of our lives. I still see value in my local church. I think our government has big issues with corruption, but I still want to participate in some ways. It's similar to that for me.
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Old 11-28-2013, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Tampa, FL
2,637 posts, read 10,946,949 times
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Originally Posted by llgg View Post
I said that? Happens to everyone? Doesn't matter? I must have hit my head because I don't remember asserting those ideas.
Of course I am paraphrasing, but that is what your apologetics boil down to. You act like oh yes, it's terrible that priests molest kids, but I've been molested and I'm ok. Oh, those naughty priests, raping kids, well it doesn't reflect on me! It's condoned and enabled by the organization that I am a part of, but it doesn't reflect on me, I'm not part of the child raping paradigm! And I believe that you are not. But by maintaining your relationship with this organization, you are allowing them to continue with this behavior and yes, that is on you.

Quote:
My priest has virtually no contact with kids that I know of because our congregation is small and almost entirely adults. Most of his time is spent with patients and their families. Could he be a child molester? Yes. Any human being I know could be a child molester.
Oh, just ANYONE could be a child molester? I can assure that it simply not true. Pedophiles represent a very small number of the overall population. Most people understand implicitly that raping children is wrong.

Quote:
If my priest is, then he got one of the worst congregations for an abuser because of the lack of kids.
And if he is, then that sort of parish is exactly where he should be stationed. Why then were known abusers instead placed in parishes with plenty of young altar boys to exploit?

Quote:
I don't think you are going to understand my point of view.
That is true. I don't understand theists and I never have. But in all fairness, you came here asking for the honest opinion of atheists, not the other way around, and this is mine. I think it's likely that you personally are a very nice person, but you are also mixed up with scoundrels who have manipulated you for all your life.

Quote:
To me the RCC is huge with millions of people involved-- some sh*t is going to happen.
See, to me, a flat tire is $**t that happens. Sexual assault of children is not some matter to be brushed aside as something that just happens.

Quote:
The RCC handled this not just badly, but in an 'evil' way.
Clearly. This goes far beyond simple mismanagement but was in fact a reflection of a culture where such was overlooked and minimized. In much the same way I see you minimizing it.

Quote:
Why protect these monsters? Their actions are vile. I think there we agree.
Why indeed. I'd like to think we agreed that these actions were vile, but by your words it seems that you consider these actions to not be that big a deal. Oh, you agree it's bad, but so is speeding, amirite? You seem to not grasp the full horror of the scandals that the church has been involved with. You seem to be ok with being a part of such an organization. And you're right, I just don't understand.

I am still waiting for you tell me just where your line is? At what point is enough, enough?
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