U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-28-2013, 05:17 PM
 
77 posts, read 198,494 times
Reputation: 35

Advertisements

Well this will be my last post for a while because I'm traveling for a bit. So I'm not ignoring you and I am trying to answer your questions, but they are not going to satisfy you, I think. I'm wrong in your eyes-- I can accept that and that's a legitimate opinion.

To be clear, I don't think speeding and child molestation are on par. I think sexual abuse of people and especially children is one of the worst things a person can experience or do to another. It is unacceptable in every way. I have seen its short and long terms effects on about half a dozen people and it's a long and difficult road. Frankly, I abhor not only the actions, but those who do it. If you continue to assert that I think it's no big deal, nothing I can say will change your mind.

To you, I condone the behavior through membership. I understand why you think that. I hear you and I can see your viewpoint. I just happen to disagree. If I'm being immoral and wrong, I hope I come to my senses. Perhaps I'll learn differently at some point and I'm open to that (and maybe it will be people like you who help me see it). But right now, I can differentiate between the giant organization and the reality of individual parishes where this abuse is not occurring.

As far as answering the 'crossing the line' question, I answered that a few responses back and used that phrase so it was clear.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-28-2013, 05:21 PM
 
Location: SC
2,967 posts, read 4,186,282 times
Reputation: 6834
I grew up as an atheist attending private Catholic schools, and my experience was much like the OP's. The Catholic church was largely based on tradition, ceremony, and history. I was never taught a single negative thing about gays, or other churches, or politics. In fact, we were often assigned papers on studying other religions of our own choosing. I was never taught that I would burn in hell, etc, as is common in many other churches. I was also taught that the bible was not always written in a literal form.

I am not aware of any anti-gay propaganda within the church, but I do take issue with any church who wants to take away a woman's right to choose.

I think a lot of the bashing of the Catholic church springs mainly from historical cultures in which the church played out long ago and the brutality within those cultures that crossed over into religion and politics of the day, and of coarse the more recent sex scandals. I think most of the hate tossed at the Catholic church, from other denominations, springs out of historical resentment based on the power the church has held for centuries, and the Catholic church's more open minded attitude towards science and overall acceptance in more recent history.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 05:28 PM
 
Location: SC
2,967 posts, read 4,186,282 times
Reputation: 6834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post

I think the Catholic church however got it massively wrong and stayed too long in the past with its ridiculous rules about condoms and suchlike. All the Catholics I have ever known have basically ignored doing what they were told to do by the church, even though they are all regular church goers and live their lives as they see fit.
I noticed that this rule was basically ignored after the WWII generation. For example, grandparents in my family had 11 kids in one family, and 6 in another. This over breeding miraculously stopped with the onset of their children in the Hippy generation, when incidentally, the Pill became available as birth control. It seems as though the over breeding was taking place in all religions, simply due to the lack of contraception in the time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Tampa, FL
2,637 posts, read 10,933,841 times
Reputation: 3547
Quote:
Originally Posted by llgg View Post
Well this will be my last post for a while because I'm traveling for a bit. So I'm not ignoring you and I am trying to answer your questions, but they are not going to satisfy you, I think. I'm wrong in your eyes-- I can accept that and that's a legitimate opinion.
Heh, it's not your job to satisfy my questions. In fact it is I who am answering your questions, about what atheists (or rather, this atheist in particular) thinks about Catholicism as opposed to other flavors of Christianity. My perceptions of Catholicism have been perhaps irrevocably tainted by these multiple molestation scandals.

Quote:
To be clear, I don't think speeding and child molestation are on par. I think sexual abuse of people and especially children is one of the worst things a person can experience or do to another. It is unacceptable in every way. I have seen its short and long terms effects on about half a dozen people and it's a long and difficult road. Frankly, I abhor not only the actions, but those who do it. If you continue to assert that I think it's no big deal, nothing I can say will change your mind.
It's more that you continue to assert that it's bad but it doesn't really matter. $**t happens, you said. Which is an extremely flippant way to talk about child rape imo.

Quote:
To you, I condone the behavior through membership.
Yes. I think that you condone and enable such behavior which I guarantee continues in your church to this day, because no one has stopped it. And no one is in a better position to stop it than parishoners, but they don't seem to care. They seem to think that it doesn't effect them, that it doesn't really matter, that $**t happens. And so nothing changes and abuse of the most vulnerable portion of the population continues.

Quote:
I understand why you think that. I hear you and I can see your viewpoint. I just happen to disagree.
What exactly is it that you disagree about? That you have some responsibility to guide the church that you profess membership to? That you are responsible for the rape of children that is probably happening right at this very moment, due to your inaction and minimization?

Quote:
If I'm being immoral and wrong, I hope I come to my senses.
I make no judgments as far as morals are concerned, but I do feel that you are being unethical. You are associating with criminals and enabling them to continue their abuses. And there is no reason why you should have to. There are plenty of other churches out there that have not been sheltering pedophiles.

Quote:
Perhaps I'll learn differently at some point and I'm open to that (and maybe it will be people like you who help me see it).
Well, I do hope so, but I doubt it. You'll continue to minimize and ignore the cognitive dissonance and pretend like it doesn't really matter.

Quote:
But right now, I can differentiate between the giant organization and the reality of individual parishes where this abuse is not occurring.
Well, you assume that such abuses are not occurring, but are you really sure? How could you be, when pedophiles within the church are routinely moved to other parishes rather than being forced to answer for their crimes? Let's assume for a moment that your current priest is a pedophile who was raping altar boys at his last post but has been moved to your relatively childless parish. Is that sufficient punishment? Should he be allowed to just pretend it never happened? If you think not, then it is a big problem that you maintain a relationship with an organization that makes sure that's exactly what happens to those who rape the children they were entrusted with. And my apologies to your parish priest who is probably an upstanding guy who doesn't abuse children. It's purely hypothetical to make the point.

Quote:
As far as answering the 'crossing the line' question, I answered that a few responses back and used that phrase so it was clear.
So basically your position is that you can't prove that there are more child rapists in the priesthood than the general population (not so sure that's correct, incidentally), but if you could, THAT would be enough? A boatload of child rapes covered up by the highest of the high is not enough, but if there were a few more, there'd be hell to pay?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 05:54 PM
 
9,765 posts, read 6,726,032 times
Reputation: 2484
Quote:
Originally Posted by tilli View Post
I disagree completely. That is absolutely a reason to leave the church. A very good reason. But what I want to know is, for those who disagree with me, what WOULD be reason enough to leave? Apparently diddling the children of parishioners is insufficient, so WHAT would be enough? Where DO you draw the line?
The US committed genocide in the Philippines more than a100 years ago. They also had brutal discrimination against blacks not that long ago. Is that a good reason to leave the US and resign the citizenship?

I acknowledge the pedophiles are despicable, but I see that as insufficient reason. The crime is committed by a person and not the institution.

I know you cannot see this point and I get it. You are not Catholic and will never know what is like.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,878 posts, read 31,757,930 times
Reputation: 12623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I acknowledge the pedophiles are despicable, but I see that as insufficient reason. The crime is committed by a person and not the institution.
Yes the crimes have been committed by individuals, but the church is even more guilty than the pedophiles as they have been covering up these crimes for generations. I left the catholic church for a much more basic reason....I was unable to force myself to believe in the nonsense they teach.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 09:49 PM
 
9,765 posts, read 6,726,032 times
Reputation: 2484
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Yes the crimes have been committed by individuals, but the church is even more guilty than the pedophiles as they have been covering up these crimes for generations. I left the catholic church for a much more basic reason....I was unable to force myself to believe in the nonsense they teach.
OK, I see your point. But, I must remind you that you sound just like the fundies in the Christianity forum.

The Church cannot do a thing. It is just a spiritual body or a collection of buildings, real estate, and colleges.


The question remains the same as above: Should Penn State be closed down because of Sandusky? Should the country of Germany be abolished or destroyed because of Nazi crimes? If my son commits a crime-------should the entire family be punished or abolished?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,878 posts, read 31,757,930 times
Reputation: 12623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
OK, I see your point. But, I must remind you that you sound just like the fundies in the Christianity forum.

The Church cannot do a thing. It is just a spiritual body or a collection of buildings, real estate, and colleges.


The question remains the same as above: Should Penn State be closed down because of Sandusky? Should the country of Germany be abolished or destroyed because of Nazi crimes? If my son commits a crime-------should the entire family be punished or abolished?
Not sure why you say that I sound like a fundie.....No, the church (not the buildings) is much more than that, and I think you know it. It is a huge political hierarchy from the pope on down...Hierarchy means the body of persons who exercise authority..... In the Catholic Church, authority rests chiefly with the bishops, while priests and deacons serve as their assistants, or helpers....Are you telling me that the bishops who neglected to report pedophile priests, and instead transferred them to other parishes where they continued to offend are blameless? Pedophilia in the Catholic Church: Coverup Operation at the Vatican? | Global Research
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 10:39 PM
 
40,052 posts, read 26,730,521 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Not sure why you say that I sound like a fundie.....No, the church (not the buildings) is much more than that, and I think you know it. It is a huge political hierarchy from the pope on down...Hierarchy means the body of persons who exercise authority..... In the Catholic Church, authority rests chiefly with the bishops, while priests and deacons serve as their assistants, or helpers....Are you telling me that the bishops who neglected to report pedophile priests, and instead transferred them to other parishes where they continued to offend are blameless? Pedophilia in the Catholic Church: Coverup Operation at the Vatican? | Global Research
I agree with you on this,sans. The hierarchy of the Catholic Church was, is and ever has been an evil enterprise cloaked with the imprimatur of religious piety. There were and are decent men within it (as Francis seems to be) . . . but on balance it has been an evil institution. Its parishioners are its unwitting victims and no blame attaches to them. Their sincerity and piety is untarnished by the hierarchy's sins.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2013, 10:44 PM
 
2 posts, read 3,183 times
Reputation: 10
You all post some very interesting points of view and truthful facts! I wonder if anyone has made a serious study of Gods word itself to determine the Truth about him. Seems to me the most reasonable source to look for answers to questions about faith. Many religious leaders today have destroyed our confidences in their leadership. Makes you question whether God is backing them or not! I've decided not to follow the crowd you might say. The Bible says to follow the narrow and cramped road and I will take you in.....I find comfort in that......I do study the Bible regularly with Jehovah's Witnesses and have found them to walk the walk they preach!!!!!! You will too!!!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top