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Old 11-29-2013, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Vermont
10,311 posts, read 11,237,378 times
Reputation: 14194

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Quote:
Originally Posted by llgg View Post

I don't think you are going to understand my point of view. To me the RCC is huge with millions of people involved-- some sh*t is going to happen. The RCC handled this not just badly, but in an 'evil' way. Why protect these monsters? Their actions are vile. I think there we agree. But I think abuse is all too prevalent and often covered up in many organizations. Maybe this viewpoint comes from working in social services, but I've seen the underbelly time and time again. This is a human problem to me and finds it way into many parts of our lives. I still see value in my local church. I think our government has big issues with corruption, but I still want to participate in some ways. It's similar to that for me.
Okay, good, you recognize that the institution was guilty of a great evil in supporting child rapists. The guy who was running things during most of that time, JP2, through his henchman Ratzinger, is about to be made a saint by the church you are defending. When that happens what will it say about the institution?
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Old 11-29-2013, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
9,010 posts, read 8,433,569 times
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Drawing a comparison between Catholicism and citizenship is a terrible analogy.

As individuals, we have very little control over our citizenship. Most countries limit immigration and some people simply do not have the option of living in a different country.

Religion is entirely different. A person can walk away from their denomination very easily. One can choose a different flavor of Christianity, or leave religion entirely.

To remain a catholic is to condone child abuse and other atrocities committed by the church, simple as that. If you want to do good works, do it with another affiliation.
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Old 11-29-2013, 07:54 PM
 
9,876 posts, read 6,747,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
Drawing a comparison between Catholicism and citizenship is a terrible analogy.

As individuals, we have very little control over our citizenship. Most countries limit immigration and some people simply do not have the option of living in a different country.

Religion is entirely different. A person can walk away from their denomination very easily. One can choose a different flavor of Christianity, or leave religion entirely.

To remain a catholic is to condone child abuse and other atrocities committed by the church, simple as that. If you want to do good works, do it with another affiliation.
Nothing like speaking from the outside.

If your entire family is Catholic and if they have been Catholic for a thousand years this becomes part of your cultural heritage. There is such a thing as an Irish Catholic and both aspects are equally important.

You keep coming up with straw men to make a poor point. You should know that a straw man argument does not work here.

And don't say you have no control over your citizenship. That is another silly straw man to make you look good.

As I said before: If there is a rapist in your family---------would you denounce your family? Leave your family? CHange your surname? Never see them again? Dude the crime was committed by an individual and not your family?
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Old 11-29-2013, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,884 posts, read 31,788,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Nothing like speaking from the outside.

If your entire family is Catholic and if they have been Catholic for a thousand years this becomes part of your cultural heritage. There is such a thing as an Irish Catholic and both aspects are equally important.

You keep coming up with straw men to make a poor point. You should know that a straw man argument does not work here.

And don't say you have no control over your citizenship. That is another silly straw man to make you look good.

As I said before: If there is a rapist in your family---------would you denounce your family? Leave your family? CHange your surname? Never see them again? Dude the crime was committed by an individual and not your family?
That depends...In your hypothetical scenario was the family complicit in covering up the rapist? If so the wise thing to do is leave. The catholic church continues to hide these crimes and doing so enables these predators.

The 6,000 pages of documents related to eight decades of abuse cases showed in great detail the Milwaukee archdiocese regularly reassigned priests who were accused of sexual molestation to new parishes and Dolan himself asking the Vatican permission to transfer $57 million to a trust fund to protect it against court action. Documents show Cardinal Dolan — top U.S. Catholic official — shielded pedophile priests | The Raw Story

Hidden priests, secret pasts: Church silent about where it houses credibly accused clerics | NJ.com

Pedophile Priest Uses a Ticket to Heaven to Manipulate His Victim

Los Angeles church officials shielded pedophile priests and kept parishioners in the dark, personnel files reveal - NY Daily News
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Rational World Park
4,999 posts, read 3,886,661 times
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I think we're lucky here in America that most christians/catholics haven't read their holy books or simply choose not to adhere to them. Either they're lazy or hypocrites or a combo of both.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
9,010 posts, read 8,433,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Nothing like speaking from the outside.

If your entire family is Catholic and if they have been Catholic for a thousand years this becomes part of your cultural heritage. There is such a thing as an Irish Catholic and both aspects are equally important.
I am not speaking from the outside. My family is very catholic. I count one priest, two nuns and a cloistered monk amongst my near relatives. My aunt stayed in a physically abusive marriage because divorce is a sin.

Quote:
You keep coming up with straw men to make a poor point. You should know that a straw man argument does not work here.
If I were using a straw man argument I would agree with you. But I am not. I am saying that the analogy drawn is flawed and I am giving reasons for it. My reasons are valid. To leave religion you must overcome cultural/family pressure, but no legal barriers, no restrictions on what you will become, no fees, no wait limits, and no impediments to earning a living.

To change citizenship, you must also overcome cultural/family pressure, the overcome legal hurdles, spend money, wait for considerable time frames, find a country willing to take you, then re establish your career.

This is radically different.

Quote:

As I said before: If there is a rapist in your family---------would you denounce your family? Leave your family? CHange your surname? Never see them again? Dude the crime was committed by an individual and not your family?

I would denounce family members who sheltered and supported that rapist. I have actually done so, where family members supported a person who committed heinous crimes and tried to come up with spurious rationalizations for these crimes.
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Old 11-30-2013, 02:09 PM
 
77 posts, read 198,654 times
Reputation: 35
This has been an interesting discussion and I appreciate all of your input. Of course we won't all agree here, but the civility and thoughtfulness has been much appreciated-- thank you!

I understand that some see being a member of the RCC is essentially condoning the child abuse that has occurred. While I don't take child abuse lightly, I do feel that there is still value in my local church, which is my reality as a member. I've never witnessed or even suspected child abuse by any of my priests. Had I, I would not have simply called my bishop; rather I'd talk to the parents and call the police and CPS.

On the whole, I think the average adult kind of has a radar when kids are around and does some kind of mental check, such as: do the neighbor kids look clean and fed? why is this adult odd or so friendly with kids? why is this child so withdrawn? Signs can be difficult to read or misunderstood and we all have different levels of training/awareness of those warning signs. My reaction to suspected child abuse has always been the same-- call the police and CPS. Their actions are usually pretty dismal (and it's not always their fault). So short of kidnapping a neighbor kid or student who's being abused, what can a person do beyond reporting? We largely are lacking a real safety net for children in our country. I've worked for years to get things to be better for kids in general and for particular kids specifically, but the reality is frustrating and at times, disgusting. Sex abuse outside the home can be a little easier because when it's outside the family, the family is more likely to support their child and remove them from the situation.

As far as any large organization with kids is concerned, it's going to attract predators. That's how they are. The RCC handled the abuse pretty much as horribly as it could be handled. I offer no excuses. I don't defend it. Nor do I defend other things the church has done presently and in the past. The best thing I think I can do if I'm to remain a member is work to solve these problems. My congregation actively works to change attitudes and practices regarding women and nuns, for example. I don't have all the answers, nor do I have a lot of power, but if people like myself hold others accountable it's a start. I have no idea what my priest did in Tanzania (where he's from) before he came here. I'd imagine if they sent him to us because they're covering up past abuse they are not going to freely tell me about it if I ask. Frankly, he seems fine and seems to have no odd interest in kids (we have no kid programs, no kids to speak of in our church, no altar boys), but if I suspected him or any other adult, I'd report it to anyone who would listen and could do something about it.

Sadly there is a history of child sex abuse in my family, as I mentioned. My grandfather raped my aunt, who is 12 years older than my father. When my father was about 6 he started to suspect something was not right, but he wasn't sure what and certainly had no idea how to handle it. My grandmother's answer was to 'yell' at him. She did not divorce him, call the police, or even send my aunt away (they could have afforded boarding school, for example, or have sent her to the rest of the family living in Japan). When I think about it, I'm disgusted and horrified by my grandmother's reaction. My father continued to have contact with both his parents after he was an adult. There are so many reasons why he did so and I don't judge him. His childhood broke him and his sister and they both came out the other end doing the best they could. It would take too long to list all the horrors they endured, but it caused them both to be unbalanced and they struggled to cope and heal. At 63, my father wishes he could go back in time and tell his father off and maybe give him a smack, but when he was 25 (when his father died), he was still yearning for a loving parent and looking for things he'd never received. People are fragile in many ways and it doesn't always make logical sense why they do certain things.
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,117,121 times
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llgg, remember the lesson: "You are judged by the company you keep."

It looks like many people apply that lesson to your local church. Since you associate with the RCC that has actively tolerated child abuse, they associate child abuse with your church.

Suppose a local chapter of the Ku Klux Klan tried to treat black people fairly. That chapter may have some very good members, but since they are part of the KKK, people would still think that chapter is very racist.
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Old 12-01-2013, 04:55 AM
 
39,204 posts, read 10,887,543 times
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The difference would be, I think, that the tenets of the KKK are racist. Some of the race -based Nazi parties in the UK have tidied up their act to try to look reasonable and acts of violence or aggression against blacks, gays or muslims can be put down to a few 'Bad apples' who can be publicly disavowed, and will be found as full participating members a year later.

The cover up of the catholic church is just as reprehensible, but the tenets of the church are not tied up with child molestation. That it is allowed to go on does not even have the bad excuse of being part of a dogma which is felt to be in the end beneficial. It is not necessary and is simply trying to lie and lie even when caught. They may think they have put the lid on it, but if it turns out that it is still going on, the stink will blow them away.
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Old 12-01-2013, 11:03 AM
 
77 posts, read 198,654 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
llgg, remember the lesson: "You are judged by the company you keep."
Good lesson. Also makes me question how far we take it? I choose to live in a town of about 800k that is largely known and described as "gay" by many people. I choose to work at an institution that experiments on animals. I choose to hang out and swim at the Jewish community center, where I've made quite a few friends. I choose to keep my US citizenship (I could pretty easily get citizenship in Canada or Japan) and live in the US. So by the company I keep I'm a gay-animal-experimenting-anti-Palestinian-war-mongering/oil-stealing kind of person or I support all of those things. In reality only one of those things is true, but that's how I'll be fairly judged by this logic.
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