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Old 12-19-2013, 01:50 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,846 posts, read 3,359,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
As I said . . . It reveals the attitude that "It is always ALL about you!" QED
If by some quirky twist of the space-time continuum, perhaps in a mirror universe, a group of atheists sat down to dinner and began saying an atheistic form of "grace," do you really think a Christian would be so eager to chant along and mimic the atheistic rituals?

Somehow, I highly doubt it.

At any rate, some folks really are all about honesty. I know that's hard to believe in this day and age, especially when honesty is more likely to ********* than reward you, but those kinds of people do exist.

Therefore, to pretend that you're a Christian for 2 minutes as the dinner blessing is mumbled is not something everyone is willing to do. Now, sure, it would be "all about me" if I demanded that no blessing be said because *gasp* I'm offended at these archaeic rituals being conducted at my table. I do not think it is so selfish to stand in respectful silence as the prayers and thanks are doled out to their respective deities (if only the farmers, producers, supermarket clerks, and the cook received so much credit!).
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Old 12-19-2013, 04:17 AM
 
9,877 posts, read 6,747,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
If by some quirky twist of the space-time continuum, perhaps in a mirror universe, a group of atheists sat down to dinner and began saying an atheistic form of "grace," do you really think a Christian would be so eager to chant along and mimic the atheistic rituals?

Somehow, I highly doubt it.

Some Christians are known to be intolerant and anal. They can only see their point of view, are very vocal, and are easily offended. One would hope atheists are not like that.

Quote:
At any rate, some folks really are all about honesty. I know that's hard to believe in this day and age, especially when honesty is more likely to ********* than reward you, but those kinds of people do exist.

Therefore, to pretend that you're a Christian for 2 minutes as the dinner blessing is mumbled is not something everyone is willing to do. Now, sure, it would be "all about me" if I demanded that no blessing be said because *gasp* I'm offended at these archaeic rituals being conducted at my table. I do not think it is so selfish to stand in respectful silence as the prayers and thanks are doled out to their respective deities (if only the farmers, producers, supermarket clerks, and the cook received so much credit!).
It is not about pretend. It is about common sense and respect for others. JUst close your eyes and put your mind in blank.

May the force be with you.
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Old 12-19-2013, 08:48 AM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,981,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
As I said . . . It reveals the attitude that "It is always ALL about you!" QED
You defend your beliefs, yet offer only insults when someone else does the same thing. Kinda sad really....

Would you go through the hockus pockus of a prayer of a religion you view as totally bogus just to 'not offend'? You never answer questions, you merely craft your insults. But take a new path, answer this question, if you have the courage.
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:20 AM
 
12,540 posts, read 12,541,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I think you need to suck it up and be a good guest. Tolerance? Know what that word means?

Consider how you view Christians who do not care for atheists or feel uncomfortable around people like you. Seems at this point you are a pot calling kettles black. Be the better person and be open to people who are not like you.
I don't see how opening someone's eyes and looking around is doing anything wrong. Their eyes are closed. They don't know.

No one is obligated to pretend to pray just to satisfy someone else. I'd probably do the same thing. If they wanted to go around the room, I would just say "I'm just happy to be here, thank you for inviting me and making this awesome food." No one is obligated to pay homage to a god, either.

It's like if I go to a wedding in a house of worship. I'll sit. I'll stand. I'll follow dress code. But I'm not going to pray, and I'm not going to speak words I do not believe. I'm going to observe, maybe make some mental notes should I ever write a short story involving a scene like that, and that's about it.
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,117,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Just close your eyes and put your mind in blank.
Wow, that is asking for a lot when there is hot food in front of me.

How about if I simply agree to chew quietly and not burp?
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:59 AM
 
40,117 posts, read 26,779,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
If by some quirky twist of the space-time continuum, perhaps in a mirror universe, a group of atheists sat down to dinner and began saying an atheistic form of "grace," do you really think a Christian would be so eager to chant along and mimic the atheistic rituals?
Somehow, I highly doubt it.
I thought I was very clear about how I handle such things.
Quote:
At any rate, some folks really are all about honesty. I know that's hard to believe in this day and age, especially when honesty is more likely to ********* than reward you, but those kinds of people do exist.
In my experience these "honesty-driven" people are very selectively so. Just saying.
Quote:
Therefore, to pretend that you're a Christian for 2 minutes as the dinner blessing is mumbled is not something everyone is willing to do. Now, sure, it would be "all about me" if I demanded that no blessing be said because *gasp* I'm offended at these archaeic rituals being conducted at my table. I do not think it is so selfish to stand in respectful silence as the prayers and thanks are doled out to their respective deities (if only the farmers, producers, supermarket clerks, and the cook received so much credit!).
I believe I agreed that as long as no overt expression was involved there is no problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
It is not about pretend. It is about common sense and respect for others. JUst close your eyes and put your mind in blank.
May the force be with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
You defend your beliefs, yet offer only insults when someone else does the same thing. Kinda sad really....
I've insulted no one. I have been very clear about my views on this issue.
Quote:
Would you go through the hockus pockus of a prayer of a religion you view as totally bogus just to 'not offend'? You never answer questions, you merely craft your insults. But take a new path, answer this question, if you have the courage.
As I said above . . . I have been very clear about my own views on this issue. As long as no overt expression is involved it is not a problem. But it is those who feel the need to express their discomfort or refuse to participate that I have issues with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
In my staunchest atheist years I would never have dreamt of insulting or making an issue of my personal feelings about their traditions or customs . . . if I was asked to be made a part of them and accepted. I consider it an honor to be included in someone's traditions and my acceptance is predicated on honoring that honor.
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Old 12-19-2013, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,869 posts, read 3,793,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Wow!

I have been to Jewish ceremonies and enjoy them even though I am not a Jew. Just enjoy the traditions and the human condition. May the Force be with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Some Christians are known to be intolerant and anal. They can only see their point of view, are very vocal, and are easily offended. One would hope atheists are not like that.

It is not about pretend. It is about common sense and respect for others. JUst close your eyes and put your mind in blank.

May the force be with you.
What are you the thought police now?
I enjoy traditions and other cultures too, including my own cultural heritage.
Culture is a different thing. We can all appreciate and get involved each other cultures.

Maybe you have forgotten about these posts I wrote in your thread a few days ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Me neither. ..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
Well like Richard Dawkins I'm a cultural Anglican who loves everything about Christmas.
I made my peace with Mystic because it seemed like he'd stepped back and taken a minute to actually view the situation from an atheists standpoint. That's called empathy and an admirable quality. Seeing the situation from another viewpoint.

I am disappointed therefore by this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
In my experience these "honesty-driven" people are very selectively so. Just saying.

Clearly for some people, praying when you don't believe it, is just water off a ducks back. For others it is a lot less comfortable. One thing you can't do is dictate how people should feel or react to a given situation or how they should think. It's a personal thing. I don't know what in life makes you feel awkward or embarrassed so I leave you to think about that one and have a little empathy and apply it to this situation.

The thing is there is nothing you can compare this to. Theists actually when it comes down to the basics believe there is one god. So if you are put in a situation where you are required to pray or give thanks to god, you can just apply your own god. Atheists don't have that. We have nowhere else to go in our heads other than reflect on the strangeness of the situation.
I can't think of any other situation in life where you are required to take part in something when you don't feel honest about doing it.
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:40 PM
 
40,117 posts, read 26,779,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
In my experience these "honesty-driven" people are very selectively so. Just saying.
I've insulted no one. I have been very clear about my views on this issue.As I said above . . . I have been very clear about my own views on this issue. As long as no overt expression is involved it is not a problem. But it is those who feel the need to express their discomfort or refuse to participate that I have issues with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
I made my peace with Mystic because it seemed like he'd stepped back and taken a minute to actually view the situation from an atheists standpoint. That's called empathy and an admirable quality. Seeing the situation from another viewpoint.

I am disappointed therefore by this:

Clearly for some people, praying when you don't believe it, is just water off a ducks back. For others it is a lot less comfortable. One thing you can't do is dictate how people should feel or react to a given situation or how they should think. It's a personal thing. I don't know what in life makes you feel awkward or embarrassed so I leave you to think about that one and have a little empathy and apply it to this situation.

The thing is there is nothing you can compare this to. Theists actually when it comes down to the basics believe there is one god. So if you are put in a situation where you are required to pray or give thanks to god, you can just apply your own god. Atheists don't have that. We have nowhere else to go in our heads other than reflect on the strangeness of the situation.
I can't think of any other situation in life where you are required to take part in something when you don't feel honest about doing it.
I had a few specific people in mind (not you Cruithne) when I said "In my experience these "honesty-driven" people are very selectively so. Just saying." I was thinking "some" people but simply blurted it out without thinking about the phrasing. If your experience with people has in any way mirrored mine . . . you should be able to acknowledge the reality of the "some people."
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Old 12-19-2013, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,094,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
The thing is there is nothing you can compare this to. Theists actually when it comes down to the basics believe there is one god. So if you are put in a situation where you are required to pray or give thanks to god, you can just apply your own god. Atheists don't have that. We have nowhere else to go in our heads other than reflect on the strangeness of the situation.
I can't think of any other situation in life where you are required to take part in something when you don't feel honest about doing it.
It is somewhat analogous if you are with someone whose everyday conversation overflows with casual and not-so-casual mention of any sort of ideology, such as politics or views on race, that is reasonably far from your own convictions, and where it's obviously implicit in these constant mentions of these topics, that you are supposed to validate or agree or commiserate about something that you either don't agree with or are indifferent to. In these situations I usually don't remark either way on the topic, and if I can get away with it, don't even acknowledge that I heard it. I finesse the conversation back onto neutral ground.

The difference with acquiescing to, or outright faking participation in, public prayer rituals is that it goes beyond polite conversation and into a much higher level of impertinence and presumption when you are forced to participate in some way in a total charade. Pretending neutrality or interest for the sake of polite conversation really doesn't rise to that level.

As an aside, I was pleasantly surprised on an infrequent family visit over the past weekend that my brother and his family (even his fundamentalist pastor son-in-law) were quite respectful in this regard and did not expect my participation, beyond respectful silence, when they said prayers over meals, etc. I probably would have been gauche if I or my wife had started eating before prayer, but that was avoided by the simple fact that we know enough not to start eating until everyone else is ready. It worked out fine.

My brother's constant parroting of "Fox News bubble content" and the like was actually far more grating than his "god-talk". That, and his tendency to dominate conversations because he's awkward with the slightest silence. All of that is ignorable on a short-term basis but would probably be too much on an ongoing basis. But I think at the age of nearly 72, he is getting to the point in life that he doesn't need to be right, and has accepted that I'm on a different path (although he doesn't realize perhaps just HOW different). This is all to the good, it means that we will be closer in his final years. In fact it is likely, when it arises organically, that we will have a frank talk about what headspace I am in and why, because I sense that he is genuinely curious, even though the chance is rather less than zero that he will change his own beliefs.
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:05 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,981,174 times
Reputation: 8282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post

Would you go through the hockus pockus of a prayer of a religion you view as totally bogus just to 'not offend'? You never answer questions, you merely craft your insults. But take a new path, answer this question, if you have the courage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I thought I was very clear about how I handle such things. In my experience these "honesty-driven" people are very selectively so. Just saying.I believe I agreed that as long as no overt expression was involved there is no problem.
It is a yes or no question, and yet you don't seem to have the integrity or courage to answer a simple question. If you answer 'yes', then you have false idols before you, and are hell bound, if your answer is 'no' then you attack others for the very same you have. And if you stick with in previous bloviations of self-righteous importance, then you lack the courage to even be honest with yourself.
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