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Old 02-13-2014, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
9,008 posts, read 8,425,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Brainwashed! I love that word. That has to be the most used word in this area of CD! I have to find out its etymology and when it first came around. And on another note I'd say I had a pretty good education when I was taught in a religious environment.

Anyway, we're all perking here. I know it's evident that I show I don't trust the a-thesitic world view at all. Boy, we really are two different species...;-)....With all the science, the rationality used in looking at problems I think there are some i.e.the moral and spiritual problems in this world, that cannot be relegated to the type of analysis you are using to fashion that new world. Has to be beyond ken as to consequences. I have to say it just doesn't compute from my end.
I think that we can look at morality analytically, and if we do not, we are in fact acting immorally.

When we pass laws or support societal taboos we are supporting the enforcement of some sort of consequences. We should be very sure that those consequences are proper.

More concretely, the bible supports slavery. I find that to be abhorrent. We can come up with a list of reasons why, debate the economic pros and cons, and develop appropriate laws to support our view of morality. This is very analytical.

To avoid the mere thought of doing this does indicate you have been brainwashed. You don't want to discuss morality, even though it is possible to do so, in part because you find atheism icky.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Brainwashed! I love that word. That has to be the most used word in this area of CD! I have to find out its etymology and when it first came around. And on another note I'd say I had a pretty good education when I was taught in a religious environment.
Yes, brainwashed, mind control, coercive persuasion, thought control, thought reform, programming or whatever term you use.

Well meaning but misguided parents begin your religious education about god long before your potty training began, and it was reinforced daily (say your prayers, god is watching, etc., etc., all to instill a fear of this mythical monster). That programming is why today you do not have the ability, desire, or even the will to think your way out of the depths of willful ignorance that is believing in the invisible boogie thing in the sky.

OBTW, I also attended parochial school, because of the academics. Religion classes (directed mostly at the catholic kids) were interesting, but amusingly absurd even then (grade school). It is only in the last couple of decades I came to recognize the threat religion poses to the future of civilization.
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:17 AM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,972,538 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
No I wouldn't want to suggest that. My post was to highliught the fact that an 'experiment' occurred and it failed dismally.
So
1. We had a moral order.
2. It was technically overthrown-a new moraliy came in with a new rationalization.
3. It was wretched for humanity.

In a way, I am glad you do get opposition and a good deal of it. You guys remind me of Dr. Frankenstein. Deep down with all that intellectual thinking you I'm afraid that do not know what you are dealing with. Man can be an unfathomable creature. You build ramparts but all I see is wispy vacuousness to a future devoid of 'God'. I do not think you care at all about consequences.
Clearly you personally have no personal moral character or standards at all.

You behavior is held in check by the fear of consequences from a wrathful god, which is a false morality, but fear based behavior control.
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Old 02-13-2014, 11:31 AM
 
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quote=Nozzferrahhtoo;33451530]Why not? I see nothing about morality or spiritually that makes it immune from scientific inquiry or commentary.[/quote]

I agree. I have long thought that the questions we call moral or spiritual - including compassion, art-forms and religious experiences may well be understandable in terms of evolved mental activity and physical responses. We know that fear of danger has long been understood in terms of a defence mechanism and an adrenaline rush, and nobody would try to explain that as something 'spiritual', let alone use it as some kind of evidence for God. But that is just what we have had for the other stuff.

It seems to be absolutely wrong and futile to state that "cannot be relegated to the type of analysis". That is truly an argument from ignorance, even if I don't believe that it is a deliberate attempt to make sure that these matters, within the ambit of the religio -spiritual, and which look like being the last justifications of the religio -spiritual, out of the hands of scientific study, investigation and, in the end explanation.

I think that is going to come as surely as a more godless (we already have a secular) society, where these delusions and myths are not going to be allowed to impinge on our society, no more than astrology. And those who want to indulge in them can be allowed to. Indeed it can even be allowed to liven up a society where fantasy and myth and magic has slipped away, a bit (1) and Christmas pageants can be put on alongside Diwali events and ...all the other religious stuff.

Under a secular society it would all be tolerated - within the law. None of that public crucifixion and self flagging stuff. They can do that in private, if they want to, and they can PAY for the medical treatment themselves, afterwards.


(1) though i would hope that in fact it would proliferate, in more re-enactment and enthusiast 'living the story' of everything from Harry Potter and Lord of the rings to civil war (name you own ) and ancient egypt fantasies. Taken very seriously by the enthusiasts and very often of real practical 'experimental archaeology' value, and no less time -wasting and nonsensical than religious services and festivals. And as 'spiritually' valuable as ballet, Kabuki or ..I am going to cudgel my brain into tolerance mode here...rock festivals.
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:01 PM
 
16,105 posts, read 17,912,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Your on to the thrust. What am I trying to say is that if we go 'godless' certain things follow. What would life be like? I have no idea conclusively. Yes, I can surmise and suppose. But it looks ot me if all that happens who writes the scripts? It is not enough to destroy. So I'd say let's go to the age old question and that is 'is everything permitted' then?


.
No, certain things do *not* follow going godless. Each of us would, btw, write our own scripts. It is true that going godless is not enough to sustain our civilization, but it is a good start. We would need to build a humanist community guided by ethical principles that do not actually derive from religion. That work can be done and is certainly already in place in countries other than the United States.

European Humanist Federation - EU Elections 2014: Stand for Secularism & Human Rights !

There are some Humanist organizations here in the US as well that are beginning to build the community. Humanism accepts both religious and non-religious people, but if religion went away, it would simply build with atheists and agnostics as its base.
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Old 02-13-2014, 02:42 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,846 posts, read 3,358,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
No I wouldn't want to suggest that. My post was to highliught the fact that an 'experiment' occurred and it failed dismally.
So
1. We had a moral order.
2. It was technically overthrown-a new moraliy came in with a new rationalization.
3. It was wretched for humanity.

In a way, I am glad you do get opposition and a good deal of it. You guys remind me of Dr. Frankenstein. Deep down with all that intellectual thinking you I'm afraid that do not know what you are dealing with. Man can be an unfathomable creature. You build ramparts but all I see is wispy vacuousness to a future devoid of 'God'. I do not think you care at all about consequences.
Ah, so this is the old Stalin is an atheism, therefore, atheism was the cause of Russia's plight? Or do you want to go all the way back to Lenin?

The problem is that you have utterly failed to provide a causality, a solid link, between atheism and the "wretched new rationalization." Unless you can prove with a great amount of specificity that it was atheism that caused it all and not, say, Stalin's paranoia, the corruption of party bosses, and overspending on an arms race it couldn't possibly win.

Do you really think things would have been all that different if communism wasn't branded atheistic?

As for all of this "intellectual thinking" and not "knowing the consequences," well, actually, I think I do.

I am rather well-versed in history, so I will tell you what I've been telling a lot of Christians on this board. There has never, ever, ever, ever, EVER been a theocratic nation, ruled by religion and a "moral order," that was not brutal, oppressive, misogynistic, tyrannical, dictatorial, and fascistic - filled with barbaric punishments for petty crimes, morality police walking the streets, and heavy-handed censorship laws to make sure the dominant religion isn't questioned. There is no such thing as freedom and liberty under a theocracy and government-enforced morality. That is precisely why our freedoms have increased and oppression has decreased as the Western world grew more secular and stopped looking to religion for answers on how to govern.

But look at the Middle East and Africa - still torn up by war and secular violence as various religious sects battle for supremecy and tribes of varying religions slaughter each other in Africa (and abandon their children by the tens of thousands thanks to Christian ministers teaching mothers that their children are the source of their problems; yeah, children are witches). You have HIV and Aids spreading like wildfire through southern Africa thanks to religious missionaries who refuse to offer contraception.

In Saudi Arabia, women are banned from driving or even being seen in public with a male who isn't a member of her immediate family, and no one should forget about the dozen or so girls who were prevented from fleeing a burning school because they didn't have the proper religious head covering on - they all died.

THIS, my friend, is the tyranny of religious rule. We should look to history, filled with crusades and inquisitions, witch trials and executions for heresy, a time when science was suppressed and conducted in secret - like Leonardo Da Vinci sneaking corpses into his basement so he could conduct autopsies to find out how the human body worked. And while Da Vinci worked his science in secret, religion was burning women by the tens of thousands, holding females responsible for the Black Death. Yeah, God was angry, that's why there was a plague, and the scapegoating commenced. Jews, women, the clergy, even cats all got a taste of religious frenzy.

And the religious STILL do this, with religious leaders who reach tens of millions of Americans blaming 9/11, Katrina, and lately the Sandy Hook school shootings on atheists, homosexuals, feminists, intellectuals, and the ACLU. Now, what do you suppose would happen to all of those groups should one of those quacking blowhards actually got into the White House?

Maybe you should listen to that reverend who said to his congregation that homosexuals should all be put behind an electrified fence and allowed to die off. Hey, why not, right? I mean, he's already halfway there with concentration camps for gays. Just a hop, skip, and a jump away from gas chambers and ovens, no?

THIS is religion when it has political power. THAT is what happens. Power often corrupts individuals; it can just as easily corrupt an entire group of people or even whole nations.
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Old 02-13-2014, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,967 posts, read 6,505,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Ah, so this is the old Stalin is an atheism, therefore, atheism was the cause of Russia's plight? Or do you want to go all the way back to Lenin?

The problem is that you have utterly failed to provide a causality, a solid link, between atheism and the "wretched new rationalization." Unless you can prove with a great amount of specificity that it was atheism that caused it all and not, say, Stalin's paranoia, the corruption of party bosses, and overspending on an arms race it couldn't possibly win.

Do you really think things would have been all that different if communism wasn't branded atheistic?

As for all of this "intellectual thinking" and not "knowing the consequences," well, actually, I think I do.

I am rather well-versed in history, so I will tell you what I've been telling a lot of Christians on this board. There has never, ever, ever, ever, EVER been a theocratic nation, ruled by religion and a "moral order," that was not brutal, oppressive, misogynistic, tyrannical, dictatorial, and fascistic - filled with barbaric punishments for petty crimes, morality police walking the streets, and heavy-handed censorship laws to make sure the dominant religion isn't questioned. There is no such thing as freedom and liberty under a theocracy and government-enforced morality. That is precisely why our freedoms have increased and oppression has decreased as the Western world grew more secular and stopped looking to religion for answers on how to govern.

But look at the Middle East and Africa - still torn up by war and secular violence as various religious sects battle for supremecy and tribes of varying religions slaughter each other in Africa (and abandon their children by the tens of thousands thanks to Christian ministers teaching mothers that their children are the source of their problems; yeah, children are witches). You have HIV and Aids spreading like wildfire through southern Africa thanks to religious missionaries who refuse to offer contraception.

In Saudi Arabia, women are banned from driving or even being seen in public with a male who isn't a member of her immediate family, and no one should forget about the dozen or so girls who were prevented from fleeing a burning school because they didn't have the proper religious head covering on - they all died.

THIS, my friend, is the tyranny of religious rule. We should look to history, filled with crusades and inquisitions, witch trials and executions for heresy, a time when science was suppressed and conducted in secret - like Leonardo Da Vinci sneaking corpses into his basement so he could conduct autopsies to find out how the human body worked. And while Da Vinci worked his science in secret, religion was burning women by the tens of thousands, holding females responsible for the Black Death. Yeah, God was angry, that's why there was a plague, and the scapegoating commenced. Jews, women, the clergy, even cats all got a taste of religious frenzy.

And the religious STILL do this, with religious leaders who reach tens of millions of Americans blaming 9/11, Katrina, and lately the Sandy Hook school shootings on atheists, homosexuals, feminists, intellectuals, and the ACLU. Now, what do you suppose would happen to all of those groups should one of those quacking blowhards actually got into the White House?

Maybe you should listen to that reverend who said to his congregation that homosexuals should all be put behind an electrified fence and allowed to die off. Hey, why not, right? I mean, he's already halfway there with concentration camps for gays. Just a hop, skip, and a jump away from gas chambers and ovens, no?

THIS is religion when it has political power. THAT is what happens. Power often corrupts individuals; it can just as easily corrupt an entire group of people or even whole nations.
Terrific post!

Let's give the credit on who said that. His name is Charles Worley.
Christian love at it's finest:
Pastor: Build Electrified Fence For Gays So They ‘Die Out’ CBS Charlotte

Quote:
The church’s website says, “We offer NO apologies in believing the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.”
Thank goodness I'm smart enough to be as far away from that hateful nonsense as possible.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:14 PM
 
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Quote:
I'm getting a familiar signal. Goldenrule would understand this very well - a general feeling that, without religion, civilisation would collapse
No. I'll state my thought this way. I am not saying civilization would collapse. I am saying if atheism is the intellectual flavor of humanity (rather than theocracy) what is the plan like, what would be the purpose of our lives. What will you do? Will it be the same? Will it change? Will you make a 'better' world? And what does 'better' mean? You say this will happen and that will happen etc etc but you cannot know for sure. All I have is questions and more questions. Philosophically, if you do not seek God what do you seek? Do you have a blueprint? If one in your world one enunciates 'I have seen God', would you shoot him? What would freedom mean to you? The move to the no-god idea appears to be more of an 'escape from' episode rather than a 'looking forward' approach. Slights, inattentiveness, repulsiveness, brainwashing etc etc etc look like your motivators to usher in the 'new world' free from the supposed lie of God. Surely an unappetizing start at the atheistic table....;-).....
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:40 PM
 
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It is far from cut and dried, and we ought to be well aware of what looks at least like experiments to do without god -belief that haven't gone too well. But I have set out what I think could be a society - as I say, we have 80% (+/- 10% each way, for error) of it already - that really doesn't change all that much except that religion ceases to have any claim to dictate our way of life. It doesn't even need to root out religion and burn it. Just remove its influence from society.

As to unappetizing, atheism must look pretty bleak from the believer's point of view, but it really isn't. It's like being let out of house arrest and finding you have the whole world, with nobody saying 'you can't go there - you can't think this or that'. It's freedom.

Not freedom to whatever the hell you like - and never mind anyone else. It could be, sure, but in fact it isn't, because the same moral codes that religion hi- jacks and refribbs to suit itself and then pretends it was the originator of them, remain in place. Social mores and behaviour was thrashed out over centuries from the time people first learned to live together when farming and herding rather than foraging and hunting was discovered.

You have nothing to lose but your (mental) chains.
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Old 02-14-2014, 01:36 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,283,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
what would be the purpose of our lives.
You need to invent non existent deities just to find purpose in your life? You have my sympathy.

This has been used as an analogy on the forum before, so forgive the repetition of it by me. But I have often gone walking in the hills just for the pleasure of it. I have on occasion invited people to come with me. Some of those people have said "What is the point, you just end up back here. You are not going anywhere. Why bother". To which I simply reply "The journey itself is the destination".

The same is true of the atheist outlook on life. We do not need some god or after life to strive towards in order to give this life now some imagined purpose or meaning. The Journey is the destination.

If this is not personally enough for you, and you have to invent unsubstantiated fantasy constructs in order to imbue your life with relevance, purpose or meaning.... then as I said you simply have my sympathy.
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