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Old 02-23-2014, 09:55 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Organized religion today is dealing with an attacking, offensive push. Understandable considering the new multi-belief systems coming on. We know the medieval is gone. Yet when I look at the situation I'm not sure of the motivation.
There is no massive attack on religion. Christianity in particular is predicated on the idea of being persecuted. In fact, it is one of the so-called "prophecies" listed in the Bible which causes many Christians to anticipate persecution. Therefore, they see it in every word or deed that doesn't march in lockstep with their own religious ideologies.

This has become such an ingrained idea that Christians have overcompensated against an imaginary "war on religion" that isn't even taking place. It's like mobilizing a massive army and storming across your neighbor's border expecting a big fight ... only to find your neighbor sitting on the patio sipping Martinis and wondering what all the fuss is about.

Yes, secular society has won a few victories in the last 50 years, the biggest one ivolving taking teacher-led mandatory prayer out of the public schools. Christians will cry about how they're being attacked, but the reality is that taking prayer out of schools was simply correcting a wrong that should not have been allowed in the first place. This is where Mordant's post comes in - the removal of prayer shows that Christianity doesn't get an automatic shoe-in wherever it goes. Now it has to prove its merits, and consistently does a ****-poor job of doing so (as the new Arizona law demonstrates).

In other words, it's like a bank robber who has successfully robbed 100 banks and gotten away with it. So when the cops arrest him for his 101st robbery, the robber says, "Well I've been robbing banks for 20 years now, so arresting me after all this time is wrong! You're just persecuting me!"

Another excellent example is how Christians have won victories in at least 32 states in getting gay marriage banned via a constitutional amendment - and other states like Pennsylvania have also banned marriage through normal laws. But when one homosexual stands up for himself against a discriminating photographer, suddenly the WAR is on again and, as per usual, Christians overcompensate by pushing laws for every business owner to discriminate against all gays anywhere. I think that's overkill given what they're reacting to - like returning a slap with an ICBM.

As for motive, that's simple - the RIGHT to be free of someone else's religion. We want religion to be a personal choice, not a monolithic steamroller that decides for everyone who they can marry, what to believe, what to eat, how to dress, and all of the other religious mambo-jahambo found in their ancient holy books.
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Another excellent example is how Christians have won victories in at least 32 states in getting gay marriage banned via a constitutional amendment - and other states like Pennsylvania have also banned marriage through normal laws. But when one homosexual stands up for himself against a discriminating photographer, suddenly the WAR is on again and, as per usual, Christians overcompensate by pushing laws for every business owner to discriminate against all gays anywhere. I think that's overkill given what they're reacting to - like returning a slap with an ICBM.
As usual it's too soon to rep you again, but ^^^^ this.

Christians at least have a reason to FEEL threatened by all this, even if they dare not articulate it even to themselves. It's a little like how some people argue ... what it is they are complaining about is not the REAL problem, it's just a PROXY for the real problem. The REAL problem for Christians in these "culture wars" is their inability to provide valid, substantiated reasons for their beliefs and the fact that more and more of society simply doesn't even begin to "get" their unexamined aversions and taboos. It is NOT self-evident or obvious why people should be creeped out by interacting in non-intimate social contexts with GLBT persons, but to them it's just self-evidently YUCCKY and that feels TRUTHY to them and it annoys them to even have to explain it -- especially when they try, they can't, or whatever "arguments" they attempt are readily disposed of, even by children.
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:21 AM
 
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Another good point, mordant. The increasing failure on the part of the faithful to see any reason to observe various religious strictures and shibboleths, which many apparently valid churches overlook anyway, must make a lot of believing Christians move away from organized religion. Goldenrule made another good point some time ago when he opined that the apparent demographic shift is more towards irrelegion than towards atheism.

If so, I'm happy with an irreligion avalanche if not an atheist one. Even if irreligious Christianity (or God -belief, at least) does not lead onto Agnosticism (which not infrequently leads to atheism) it will reduce the power, authority and influence of the man - made religions and their man - made rules.
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Even if irreligious Christianity (or God -belief, at least) does not lead onto Agnosticism (which not infrequently leads to atheism) it will reduce the power, authority and influence of the man - made religions and their man - made rules.
Ultimately, yes, but in the short run it will also make the most intransigent of them dig in and circle the wagons, too. The most rabid theists are not pragmatists.
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Old 03-03-2014, 08:13 PM
 
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If so, I'm happy with an irreligion avalanche if not an atheist one. Even if irreligious Christianity (or God -belief, at least) does not lead onto Agnosticism (which not infrequently leads to atheism) it will reduce the power, authority and influence of the man - made religions and their man - made rules.
And so what do you think? Will it be said that irreligionists then will fill in that vacuum with 'their' power and more importantly... with what? Looks to me it'll be done on the fly, sort 'o' like the Doors' 'take it as it comes'. It'll be kind of an like an ad-lib you know? Takes alot of time to build irreligion I'd say.
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Old 03-04-2014, 05:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by travric View Post
And so what do you think? Will it be said that irreligionists then will fill in that vacuum with 'their' power and more importantly... with what? Looks to me it'll be done on the fly, sort 'o' like the Doors' 'take it as it comes'. It'll be kind of an like an ad-lib you know? Takes alot of time to build irreligion I'd say.
We live in a secular country with lots of non-religious private organizations with well-established backgrounds, histories and traditions. It isn't as if religion is slowly dying and we'll have to live in complete anarchy until it is totally gone and only then start building up something from scratch. I'm not sure what you're so worried about.
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Old 03-04-2014, 09:17 AM
 
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I'm not sure what you're so worried about.

This was noted:

Quote:
Even if irreligious Christianity (or God -belief, at least) does not lead onto Agnosticism (which not infrequently leads to atheism) it will reduce the power, authority and influence of the man - made religions and their man - made rules.
I'd say all systems/constructs in culture experience 'entropy'. The various religions and creeds then will expereince this as well. If the 'power' of man-made religions get reduced this brings in more entropy. So does the 'power' dissipate? Does it increase? Does it wane? And if power gets gained, to who, for what? Implications?

Just some questions. I am interested and intrigued in how a possible completely or 'almost' secular society would be run free from as some say religious mumbo-jumbo. Though I understand that it will be tough to get to that situation since we would be going against the tide of millenia where man has tried to make sense of his life and purpose. Religions, of course, are one way. But who knows what can occur in the affairs and concerns of humanity?
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Ultimately, yes, but in the short run it will also make the most intransigent of them dig in and circle the wagons, too. The most rabid theists are not pragmatists.
I'm fine with that. If the rest of the people have come to their senses, let the diehards shut themselves in their bunker.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
I'm not sure what you're so worried about.

This was noted:



I'd say all systems/constructs in culture experience 'entropy'. The various religions and creeds then will expereince this as well. If the 'power' of man-made religions get reduced this brings in more entropy. So does the 'power' dissipate? Does it increase? Does it wane? And if power gets gained, to who, for what? Implications?

Just some questions. I am interested and intrigued in how a possible completely or 'almost' secular society would be run free from as some say religious mumbo-jumbo. Though I understand that it will be tough to get to that situation since we would be going against the tide of millenia where man has tried to make sense of his life and purpose. Religions, of course, are one way. But who knows what can occur in the affairs and concerns of humanity?
I am sure we had this discussion before. The short answer is- just as we have it now, but without the ongoing application to gum - in -the -works of religion. And - hopefully - a more rational and indeed tolerant view of people and their various traditions and beliefs.

The dire warnings about a collapse of civilization, mayhem and vanishment of rule of law, morality and tolerance is understandable from those who believe the lie that all of that is due to Christianity (which simply hi-jacked what was there already) but is merely scaremongering as part of the con-trick and scam.

You really, really, have nothing to lose but your mental chains.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:52 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,942,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
I'm not sure what you're so worried about.

This was noted:



I'd say all systems/constructs in culture experience 'entropy'. The various religions and creeds then will expereince this as well. If the 'power' of man-made religions get reduced this brings in more entropy. So does the 'power' dissipate? Does it increase? Does it wane? And if power gets gained, to who, for what? Implications?
Yep, all questions that have needed to be answered as long as people have organized into groups. No reason to think there's anything scary about the continuation of hundreds of years of decline in power of religious groups.
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