U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-11-2014, 12:54 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,316,176 times
Reputation: 2973

Advertisements

Sorry for the delay in replay here. Your tactic of leaving my name out of the QUOTE function meant I missed your post temporarily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
All well and good. You are standing up for your beliefs but you have a insidious approach Nozzferrhhtoo where you denigrate your opposition. Things I'd like to see: an atheist arguing with only feathers er not with sledgehammers.
You are simply making things up about me now. I have denigrated no one. My motto in these things is "Respect People - Not Ideas.". I attack ideas and claims. I do not attack the people who hold them. If you want to claim I do then you are simply misrepresenting me.

Which leads me to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
The atheistic argument appears to really to be on all cylinders when in opposition to religion. It's the nature of attack and its goal is complete destruction of an edifice. An edifice that has been built up since pre-history coloelcting the thoughts and deliberations of man's approach to spirituality, divinty, the supernatural.
All of this from you is a complete misrepresentation and a straw man and a canard. You appear to be more interested in telling atheists what they think and believe rather than listening to atheists tell you what they think and believe. You are simply soap boxing.

The atheistic and skeptical and secular movements are about one thing only: Keeping unsubstantiated nonsense out of our halls of education, power and science. Simple as. There are few, if any, such people who have any interest whatsoever in preventing others from engaging in their own brand of personal spirituality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
You have an idea, i.e there are no 'gods.
No what I have is a fact, and that fact is simple: No one to date has presented me with a single shred of evidence, argument, data or reasoning that lends credibility to the claim there is a god.

Anything else you want to assign to me is, once again, simply you making things up and shoving them into my mouth in order to pretend I said them.

So the choice is yours really. You can face reality and listen to people like me tell you what our position is and why we hold it. Or you can keep your head in the sand and continue to misrepresent us and tell us what you want our positions to be in your fantasy land.

I know which I would pick in your position. Sadly I know which you are likely to continue to pick instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
So the question is ultimately what does 'no god' offer?
Why does it have to offer anything? I am simply evaluating the evidence presented (in this case none, much less so by you) and coming to a conclusion (that there is no reason on offer, much less from you, to think there is a god).

That process does not have to "offer" something. It simply is what it is.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-11-2014, 03:38 AM
 
39,804 posts, read 11,125,718 times
Reputation: 5150
Excellent post, Nozz. And as usual, the point is more to explain ourselves to the readers and maybe to ourselves, since many atheists once they become so just want to shout about how they now realize that their God -belief was based on nothing.

It takes a while before we begin to think about having respect for other people's beliefs - no matter how daft they might be, or at least having respect for those peoples' right to have them.

But that doesn't mean that we should be silent when claims are made in books or You -tubes or forums like this, and it is not only right and proper that we question and put a counter -case, but I recken we have a duty to do so.

It comes down to whether we want a world where our beliefs are founded on the best evidence we have, or on faith - which means that you have a globe -full of people all believing different things and all shouting at each other that their unsupported faith is right and other unsupported faiths are all wrong. And moreover they are going to be punished for it.

So I have to say now that I have looked at the 'support' for the various faiths, and Christianity, I have to say, has one of the most persuasive collections of evangelical packages I have seen. But under examination, the case turns out to fall apart.

We can't expect our word for that to be taken at face value. Of course we have to make a case. That is why we do what we do, even if we don't know what we are doing when we are new - hatched goddlesss bastards who feel that they only need to shout 'It's all an illusion. There isn't a God at all!' and everyone will be convinced.

It doesn't work like that, and of course it shouldn't. We have to make a case and also refute the misrepresentations, canards and strawman arguments that religion makes about us and which had led to us having such a bad press.

The Hysteria of the early Cold war surely led to atheists being seen as equivalent to the Communists. Nobody was happier than me to see the Berlin wall come down and the Dogmatic cult -state of the Soviet empire collapse.

Or the turban -wearing bigot screams that we (atheists) want to fornicate in the street. I posted in the muslim forum a post of respect for womens' rights that would not even have occurred to the average quranic cleric, and would be dismissed immediately by him (forget about women muslim clerics Western Christianity - culturally 3 centuries ahead of Islam - is only just grappling with women clerics) with some handy Quranic quote or, failing that, 'Tradition'.

And an atheist cannot be trusted (say the polls), not to hold office, nor presumably with your car, money or family. Atheists are not plaster saints. Adopting a rational and evidence based - view of the god -question does not make us into Perfect beings. But in fact we think more about morals and what is right or wrong than most other groups (apart from philosophers, maybe) because we are now personally morally responsible for people's duties towards us and ours towards other people and indeed society as a whole. Christianity has it easy - do what you grew up with because the majority is always right and its a Christian nation, aint it? And, if you give into temptation, you can always say a prayer or two.

We can do better and taking the rational worldview (which is actually 80% in place, even without our realizing it) surely looks to me like the obvious and best option. I have observed before that there are many religions, but only one science. Though it is argued about all the time - as it should be, but what goes in the Books is agreed by all to be reliable. So we do not get various sciences, nor logic. The 'Golden rule' is common all over the globe and looks like a morals basic, though where it came from I can't explain.

"This was a broadcast on behalf of the Rationalist and irreligionist party. Complaints should be sent to...."

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-11-2014 at 03:44 AM.. Reason: a few afterthots
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2014, 05:22 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,316,176 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
It takes a while before we begin to think about having respect for other people's beliefs - no matter how daft they might be, or at least having respect for those peoples' right to have them.
Indeed. I am all for the latter. I absolutely refuse to engage in the former. Nor should I I feel.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2014, 06:15 AM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,728,576 times
Reputation: 3109
Quote:
The bolded above leaves me thinking that you are viewing atheism as a replacement religion. An all atheist world would be one where no one spends any time thinking about god/no god, not one with some new set of rules by which we should live. Moralism would still be viable since it is the minimum necessary for a functioning civilization and most people would still prefer civilization to anarchy with or without the moralism grounded in religious fears. It would be pragmatic moralism but it would be that which evolves from necessity, not imposed by some post corporal notion of reward and punishment or pleasing/displeasing a creator.
Your on to the thrust. What am I trying to say is that if we go 'godless' certain things follow. What would life be like? I have no idea conclusively. Yes, I can surmise and suppose. But it looks ot me if all that happens who writes the scripts? It is not enough to destroy. So I'd say let's go to the age old question and that is 'is everything permitted' then?


.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2014, 06:52 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,316,176 times
Reputation: 2973
Well we might not have an example of a truely godless society to look at as an example but I think we can make some guesses. So by all means surmise and suppose but lets do it rationally. Certainly the more secular a country is the higher its charity per capita and the lower its crime rates. We only need look to certain EU countries for confirmation of that.

Not sure what you are surmising and supposing it might be like though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2014, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
9,143 posts, read 8,538,382 times
Reputation: 15835
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Your on to the thrust. What am I trying to say is that if we go 'godless' certain things follow. What would life be like? I have no idea conclusively. Yes, I can surmise and suppose. But it looks ot me if all that happens who writes the scripts? It is not enough to destroy. So I'd say let's go to the age old question and that is 'is everything permitted' then?


.
I have to concur with Nozzferrahhtoo. This is all a red herring. Atheism is simply living without a belief in a god. That is it, end of story.

For the entertainment value, let's look at Asian cultures. Buddhism can be described as atheistic, yet China functions perfectly well as a society. You can certainly debate the merits of individual laws, humN rights, etc, but I think this is beside the point. They have a functioning society, so it can work.

Beyond that, I would say that everybody in the US, Canada, Europe, Australia already function in a legally atheistic society. We all agree that slavery is wrong, yet the bible supports it. The 10 commandments include not coveting and not working in Sunday, yet capitalism is based upon coveting and we certainly have many people who work on Sunday.

There are methods of developing moral systems aside from following a religious book. In fact, given the reality that bible god has never been proven to exist and there is much evidence against his existence, I think it fair to say that the bible is an attempt, albeit a poor one, to develop and codify a system of morality. God is simply the mechanism of delivering that morality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2014, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,198 posts, read 9,155,349 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Your on to the thrust. What am I trying to say is that if we go 'godless' certain things follow. What would life be like? I have no idea conclusively. Yes, I can surmise and suppose. But it looks to me if all that happens who writes the scripts? It is not enough to destroy. So I'd say let's go to the age old question and that is 'is everything permitted' then?
What life is like for the godless is as diverse as what life is like for the "godful". Everyone is different. In the main I think godlessness results in freedom of thought, which cuts both ways. While dealing in reality is always IMO the best long range tactic for effective living, not everyone is equally able to handle bare-metal reality in all its unloveliness and prickliness. It is possible to fall into nihilistic despair, and it is possible to really blossom. Much depends on a person's expectations. And this is where it gets really gnarly, because the expectations of a theist -- to be protected in various ways from calamity and want, to be comforted in the midst of calamity and want, for there to be an overarching purpose and meaning to cling to even when things look bad, for there to be some form of orchestration in the universe, some mechanism of petition and appeal (prayer) and some ultimate safety valve to balance out all loose ends (heaven) and some sort of ultimate justice (hell -- justice for your enemies at least!) -- these very needs and desires fly in the face of reality. It's amazing that most atheists are deconverts and that most of those do not go off the deep end.

The reason that doesn't happen is that life in an indifferent universe is not that bad at all, and life in the theist echo chamber is not as great by comparison as one thinks. When I left the faith I left behind a lot of painful cognitive dissonance and frustration and sense of wrongness, which I was happy to do; and once it sinks in that life is just what it is, regardless of what you believe, you realize that you really haven't lost anything and you have gained some things -- the flexibility and benefits of being free to follow evidence where it leads, the ability to deal with thorny issues with far fewer options being taken off the table for no reason other than to honor some dogma or other, to name just a couple.

As to "is everything permitted then" -- the answer is, in terms of what's ACTUALLY permitted or forbidden, nothing changes. You and I live under the same morality -- societal morality. Theists usually just deny morality's source and purpose. If you were to wake up tomorrow a godless bastard, you would still find the same (dis)incentives in place that have always existed. Kill someone, you will still likely spend life in prison. Speed, you'll still get a ticket. Treat people badly, they will still shun you. Treat them well, they will still tend to play nice in the sandbox with you, too. Be an idiot and you'll still feel badly about yourself. Be decent and you'll still feel decent about yourself.

But one thing changes for the better: now you are doing what's right and best because you choose to, rather than because someone tells you that you ought to.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2014, 08:20 AM
 
39,804 posts, read 11,125,718 times
Reputation: 5150
You guys are brilliant -and I can't rep either of you. Yes, some people can relish the freedom of atheism, and those that find it leads to nihilistic despair can always turn back to belief. I'm not going to stop them.

Yet those who battle through the cold turkey (because they can't go back to believing in what they could no longer believe, no matter how tough for them) found it was better in the end, to face reality.

As to an irreligious, rationalist society. I think we have seen the worst it can produce...no, it isn't the Atheist dictatorships, because a rationalist society would tend towards tolerance rather than control, openness rather than censorship, and factuality rather than Dogma... and the drawbacks to those are, I am inclined to suggest is too much religious rivalry and not enough rationalist reasoning.

I could be wrong, but if so, like the Prohibition experiment, society will give up what is doing more harm than good (which is why I say that we have an 80% secular social system in place already ) and I see no good reason not to try. And those who try to put me off with assurances that atheism will never overcome the need for superstition, are wasting their posting - time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2014, 12:55 PM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,728,576 times
Reputation: 3109
Quote:
As to "is everything permitted then" -- the answer is, in terms of what's ACTUALLY permitted or forbidden, nothing changes. You and I live under the same morality -- societal morality. Theists usually just deny morality's source and purpose. If you were to wake up tomorrow a godless bastard, you would still find the same (dis)incentives in place that have always existed. Kill someone, you will still likely spend life in prison. Speed, you'll still get a ticket. Treat people badly, they will still shun you. Treat them well, they will still tend to play nice in the sandbox with you, too. Be an idiot and you'll still feel badly about yourself. Be decent and you'll still feel decent about yourself.
Really I think history kind of answers you there. Man-kind of ran amok. They were er..... 'rationalists'. You guys are hard to trust!...;-)....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-11-2014, 01:07 PM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,728,576 times
Reputation: 3109
Quote:
The reason that doesn't happen is that life in an indifferent universe is not that bad at all...........,
Man, you must have a summer home in an indifferent universe!..I shojuld be so lucky!....;-)....You know I just don't know about that one. We got plenty of suffering and pain around here now. You think it will maybe disappear?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top