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Old 02-09-2014, 03:17 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Rather, the main importance of the camel evidence is for the dating of the writing of some of the Biblical books, such as the book of Genesis and the Book of Job. That is all. It shows that these works were written many hundreds of years after the supposed facts they purport to relate. Of course, Biblical Scholars have known this already for hundreds of years from simple textual analysis and the stage of Biblical Hebrew used in the books, but the camel issue adds another piece of evidence to their disposal. But I'm not talking about Fundamentalist whackos here - I'm talking about professionals who have no problem admitting the very human nature of the Hebrew Bible and the many anachronistic errors it contains. It's part and parcel of their job, and any Fundamentalist notions that may be in their head are smashed out in their first year of higher education.
We do tend to address fundamentalist thought in threads like this because a liberal theologian who acknowledges the Bible's human authorship and that it is generally not a a literal account of actual history will, as you point out, be unsurprised by this additional evidence. Our quibble with those folks is that there is no justification for god-belief even if they do not include in their justification for that belief, a literal belief in things like young earth and the six day creation account, and thus they find little or no conflict between their faith and scientific consensus. But that is off-topic for this thread, especially since such believers are much more "live-and-let-live" types for whom we can have some mutual respect and even common cause.
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Old 02-09-2014, 06:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Come now... I'm no Religious Fundamentalist, but there are some events (SOME, and not many) recorded in the Hebrew Bible that on a general level are found to be corroborated in extra-biblical records (such as the siege on Jerusalem by the Assyrians, for one example; of course, the two accounts differ in some ridiculous details such as the Angel of Yahweh bringing a plague on the Assyrians, but the main gist is there). This relates to events in the later books of the Hebrew Bible - not Patriarchal events, or Primeval events or even early monarchic events dealing with David or Solomon. Definitely nothing to do with the Exodus.

My point is that one cannot generalize and say "the Bible's events have been disproven by science and archaeology" as this is just plain incorrect. A little more specificity is in order here. Know your enemy, as they say. Otherwise, they will gladly throw you under the rug and use your own statements against you.


The main importance of the dating of the domesticated camel bones is not pertaining as to whether Abraham had camels or not at his disposal or whether the stories of Abraham and Job ever happened. The majority of Biblical Scholars see the figures of the Patriarchs as purely folkloristic, possibly representing tribes rather than individuals, but this still understands that the Patriarchal events did not happen at all, really. Too much evidence that the Israelites had come from indigenous Canaanite stock, rather than as pastoral nomads.

Rather, the main importance of the camel evidence is for the dating of the writing of some of the Biblical books, such as the book of Genesis and the Book of Job. That is all. It shows that these works were written many hundreds of years after the supposed facts they purport to relate. Of course, Biblical Scholars have known this already for hundreds of years from simple textual analysis and the stage of Biblical Hebrew used in the books, but the camel issue adds another piece of evidence to their disposal. But I'm not talking about Fundamentalist whackos here - I'm talking about professionals who have no problem admitting the very human nature of the Hebrew Bible and the many anachronistic errors it contains. It's part and parcel of their job, and any Fundamentalist notions that may be in their head are smashed out in their first year of higher education.
Right again. Of course there are some historical events in the Bible, because we have them confirmed in archeology. What we get though is a religio-political slant. e.g the Assyrian attack on Jerusalem failed. The reasons why are several, but the credit is given to God smiting the Assyrians, of course.

On the other hand, there are historical events that are gotten wrong, so to speak. The prophecies of Tyre and Babylon and of course Luke's nativity census. There was one, but it doesn't work the way he uses it.

As you say this is not just showing that Abraham doubtfully had camels, or that the early stories are incorrect, but that it tends to date the stories.

Let's have a quick look.

date (probable or believed)
before 3,000 BCE. Creation, Flood. false, based on earlier stories.
c. 2,000 -1,500 BCE Exodus, Conquest. False, but possibly based on folk tales of the expulsion of the Hyksos
c. 1,000 BCE David and Solomon. Prob True, but somewhat exaggerated.
8 - 600 Assyrian and Babylonian attacks. Destruction of Israel and Judean exile. Real events with a religious slant.
Prophecies of Tyre, Babylon and Daniel. Essentially, they are loosely right as to the Babylonian history (Daniel's fall of Babylon is a bit slipshod) but are bang on the money as regards post Alexander history so that tends to date them to the 2nd -1st centuries BCE.

The conclusion is (and I am aware that several 'Layers' of Bible editing are involved) The Bible is 'eyewitness' only to the events after 1,000 BCE. Though the 'Law' (numbers, Deuteronomy and maybe Leviticus) was the first part written. They are true though given a political slant.

Then we get the Hellenistic books, with the prophecies of Tyre and Babylon that still looked possible (Babylon wasn't destroyed at all and Tyre was rebuilt) and Daniel's history as prophecy up to the Maccabean revolt, after which it speculates (seen as still in the future).

Thus, The Law (10th c BC.) Genesis-Exodus. and the Kings - Jeremiad stuff, Babylonian down to Assyrian times. (c 9th -7th c BCE)
Post exilic stuff to Maccabees - 4th -2nd C BCE. And perhaps Ezekiel's vision of a rebuilt Temple 1st C BC -before Herod began the rebuild, based on Ezekiel's description.

This isn't lock -down. Open to discussion of course. But I suggest this is the sort of date of the Bible, not begun by Moses in around 1,100 BC and some unnamed eywittnesses of the events of 50,000 - 4,000 BCE, give or take some ten or so thousand years... we can't trust C14, of course - it isn't accurate.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-09-2014 at 06:50 AM..
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Ohio
19,904 posts, read 14,228,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
As you say this is not just showing that Abraham doubtfully had camels, or that the early stories are incorrect, but that it tends to date the stories.

Let's have a quick look.

date (probable or believed)
before 3,000 BCE. Creation, Flood. false, based on earlier stories.
c. 2,000 -1,500 BCE Exodus, Conquest. False, but possibly based on folk tales of the expulsion of the Hyksos
c. 1,000 BCE David and Solomon. Prob True, but somewhat exaggerated.
8 - 600 Assyrian and Babylonian attacks. Destruction of Israel and Judean exile. Real events with a religious slant.
Prophecies of Tyre, Babylon and Daniel. Essentially, they are loosely right as to the Babylonian history (Daniel's fall of Babylon is a bit slipshod) but are bang on the money as regards post Alexander history so that tends to date them to the 2nd -1st centuries BCE.

The conclusion is (and I am aware that several 'Layers' of Bible editing are involved) The Bible is 'eyewitness' only to the events after 1,000 BCE. Though the 'Law' (numbers, Deuteronomy and maybe Leviticus) was the first part written. They are true though given a political slant.

Then we get the Hellenistic books, with the prophecies of Tyre and Babylon that still looked possible (Babylon wasn't destroyed at all and Tyre was rebuilt) and Daniel's history as prophecy up to the Maccabean revolt, after which it speculates (seen as still in the future).

Thus, The Law (10th c BC.) Genesis-Exodus. and the Kings - Jeremiad stuff, Babylonian down to Assyrian times. (c 9th -7th c BCE)
Post exilic stuff to Maccabees - 4th -2nd C BCE. And perhaps Ezekiel's vision of a rebuilt Temple 1st C BC -before Herod began the rebuild, based on Ezekiel's description.

This isn't lock -down. Open to discussion of course. But I suggest this is the sort of date of the Bible, not begun by Moses in around 1,100 BC and some unnamed eywittnesses of the events of 50,000 - 4,000 BCE, give or take some ten or so thousand years... we can't trust C14, of course - it isn't accurate.
That's decent.

There is no doubt that 9 (or more) of the "tribes" were always in Canaan and had never been to Egypt.

You might want to consider factoring in the destruction of Ugarit. That was most likely the key event that either created the impetus to form a kingdom --- united they stand, divided they fall -- or created a [political/geo-political] vacuum that was filled later by the Hebrews.

Archaeologically....

Mircea
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:17 PM
 
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Thanks. Yes, there is a lot of historical evidence that Caanan was a lot of city states using the script called 'proto -hebrew' but is more correctly Canaanean script (1) used by the Phoenecians (in my youth it was claimed they had invented it) and no doubt Ugarit as well. To write Ugaritic. That is the thing with the alphabetic script - it can be used for any language.

Well, it seems that the Caananite city - states were swept away in the upheaval that also saw the disappearance of the Hittite empire, and cause a lot of disruption in the aegean, leading to the attempt of the 'Peleset' to settle in Egypt (defeated by Ramesses III) and who settled in Gaza as the Philistines, just as Moab, Edom, Ammon and Israel began to grow in the vacuum left by the vanished Canaanite city - states.

(1) particularly, Canaanite was used on potsherds found at the Egyptian turquoise mines in Sinai. While this simply indicated Canaanite migrant workers, a source hopefully called this script 'Proto -hebrew' hoping to make the Canaanite mine -workers look like the Israelites following Moses around for forty years.
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Old 02-21-2014, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Of course Abraham didn't have camels. Because no one named Abraham from the Bible ever existed!
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:40 PM
 
278 posts, read 255,426 times
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Camels?!? Timelines?!?!?
Doesn't the bible have bigger, more significant problems?
(Still, it is an interesting read)
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Old 02-23-2014, 05:00 AM
 
39,041 posts, read 10,831,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelDragon View Post
Camels?!? Timelines?!?!?
Doesn't the bible have bigger, more significant problems?
(Still, it is an interesting read)
Yes it does. But in fact I have found that small, apparently insignificant details (take for instance the Mernephtah stele with the apparent mention of an emerging Israel, or the claim that Caiaphas was High Priest for 'that year' john 1.49) when he had been appointed years before and would stay in the post until Pilate was recalled -a small point and easily explained, but a small clue that John did not know the circumstances of Caiaphas' career and raises suspicions that he was not an eyewitness.

All these little problems aggregate together to create a huge number of weighty problems and very good and sound reasons to disbelieve the Bible as an accurate record - New or Old Testament alike.

As to timelines, they can be revealing, too. It was producing a timeline that was significant in rasining serious doubts as to whether the Exodus could ever have be true. You have to remember that miracles and tall tales do not rule out historical fact. The Angels of Mons and 'The guard dies; it does not surrender' are made -up literary (or newstrash) claims with no basis in reality, yet the battle of Mons and the last stand of the Old Guard were real.
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Old 02-23-2014, 07:56 PM
 
278 posts, read 255,426 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Yes it does. But in fact I have found that small, apparently insignificant details (take for instance the Mernephtah stele with the apparent mention of an emerging Israel, or the claim that Caiaphas was High Priest for 'that year' john 1.49) when he had been appointed years before and would stay in the post until Pilate was recalled -a small point and easily explained, but a small clue that John did not know the circumstances of Caiaphas' career and raises suspicions that he was not an eyewitness.

All these little problems aggregate together to create a huge number of weighty problems and very good and sound reasons to disbelieve the Bible as an accurate record - New or Old Testament alike.

As to timelines, they can be revealing, too. It was producing a timeline that was significant in rasining serious doubts as to whether the Exodus could ever have be true. You have to remember that miracles and tall tales do not rule out historical fact. The Angels of Mons and 'The guard dies; it does not surrender' are made -up literary (or newstrash) claims with no basis in reality, yet the battle of Mons and the last stand of the Old Guard were real.
Arq, thanks for taking the time to write such knowledgeable and detailed posts. I appreciate and learn a great deal from them. I was just being flippant on that last post.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:31 AM
 
39,041 posts, read 10,831,421 times
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Originally Posted by SteelDragon View Post
Arq, thanks for taking the time to write such knowledgeable and detailed posts. I appreciate and learn a great deal from them. I was just being flippant on that last post.
Understood. Neverthless it was a valid question - in fact a couple of E-pals noticed this news -article and asked the same question - is it really important?

And your post enabled me to explain that it is part of what I think of as Biblical detective work where forensic evidence (archaeology) and thinking over the statements (Bible criticism) is very much based on a lot of small clues coming together into a good, sound case.
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:23 PM
 
Location: "Arlen" Texas
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Believers are going to believe. These kinds of things are interesting for those tuned into reality. And they await those open to deconversion.
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