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Old 02-11-2014, 04:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
On a more general POV in psychology, how the vast majority view reality is considered normal.

With that said, 90% plus of all humans believe in God or some kind of deity. That would make atheists abnormal.

Perhaps even mentally ill by definition. Not that there is anything wrong with that. The inability to handle the daily tasks of life is what matters. One's belief system is fine as long as you can take care of yourself (do the activities of daily living( ADLs) and are not a danger to one's self or others (CA H&S legal code section 5150).
Christians were at first considered antisocial if not insane. The Heliocentric view absurd if not heretical, evolution obscene, if not atheistic.

They have all, in time, got to be the dominant view. The banda -Log argument (We all say so, si it must be right) is not valid. Numbers do not make a view right or wrong, but evidence does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
What about women?
Applies to women, too
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Old 02-11-2014, 05:27 AM
 
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Atheism is not in and of itself rational or irrational. It is the RESULT of a rational process. And that process is simple: Do not accept claims that are presented as assertion entirely devoid of argument, evidence, data or reasoning to substantiate it.

THAT is a rational approach and atheism is a consequence of the application of it give that there is no arguments, evidence, data or reasoning on offer to us to lend credibility or substantiation to the claim there is a god.
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Old 02-11-2014, 05:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Some atheists seem to think that a sufficient reason for atheism is the fact (as they say) that we no longer need God to explain natural phenomena — lightning and thunder for example. We now have science.

As a justification of atheism, this is pretty lame. We no longer need the moon to explain or account for lunacy; it hardly follows that belief in the nonexistence of the moon (a-moonism?) is justified.
Some a-Santaists seem to think that a sufficient reason for a-Santaism is the fact (as they say) that we no longer need Santa to explain natural phenomena — appearance of Christmas presents under the tree for example. We now have science.

As a justification of a-santaism, this is pretty lame. We no longer need Santa to explain or account for Christmas presents; it hardly follows that belief in the nonexistence of Santa is justified.

Assuming he actually believes what he is writing, if he's not a hypocrite he believes in Santa just as much as he does in his god. I imagine if you asked him you'd get all sorts of special pleading about why belief in god somehow requires us to use different rules. Wonder why that is...

The problem is not that a few arguments for god fail in some cases. It is that there are no good reasons to believe to begin with. Sure, one or two missteps by apologists would be understandable. But when none of them can make a single point for their god, then the reasonable approach is to pat them on the head, thank them for sharing, and move on to something that's not a complete waste of time.

Last edited by KCfromNC; 02-11-2014 at 06:10 AM..
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
On a more general POV in psychology, how the vast majority view reality is considered normal.

With that said, 90% plus of all humans believe in God or some kind of deity.
Too bad none of them can agree on what this god is. You can pretend that there's a majority if you mush a bunch of mutually-exclusive ideas of gods into one big lumpy pile, but that's hardly evidence that ll believers view the reality of their gods in the same way. Let us see how "normal" you're willing to be - affirm to us that you worship Shiva and Vishnu as equal to Jesus. If you don't, then no fair claiming a billion plus Hindus as part of your club.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110 View Post
Interesting interview in the NY Times.

Is Atheism Irrational?

What are your thoughts on the interview?
My thought - it's a slightly muddled example of presuppositional apologetics. Assuming god must exist to prove that it exists isn't going to win any awards from people who actually know logic or philosophy, but if you make it confusing enough some believers will accept is as a rationalization to stop thinking too hard about the nagging doubts they're having. It is even more reassuring to the questioning believer if the person rambling on about stuff has an impressive sounding PhD after his name.

Last edited by KCfromNC; 02-11-2014 at 07:26 AM..
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:49 AM
 
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Let's go with a little Longfellow, poets are smart guys too...

'In the elder days of art
Builders wrought with greatest care
Each minute and unseen part
For the Gods are everywhere'

We know how the world is operating in the context of the last line. I'd be curious to know how they'd view the installation of atheism in the universe. Queston is would a Dickens character like Ebeneezer still exist mumbling 'Humbug' in the world.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
But in a venue targeted at a lay audience it is virtually impossible to present the kind of arguments that are necessary to reveal the flaws in materialism and atheism.
This is a good forum for it however - and you have yet to even show one argument showing a flaw in atheism. So perhaps the forum was not the problem - but the lack of arguments to support an eroneous subjective and vacuous conclusion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The arguments from consciousness and intelligence are far stronger
Stronger for what exactly? All we really know - is that these things exist. More than that we do not yet know. How is our own ignorance an argument for anything exactly?
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Let's go with a little Longfellow, poets are smart guys too...

'In the elder days of art
Builders wrought with greatest care
Each minute and unseen part
For the Gods are everywhere'

We know how the world is operating in the context of the last line. I'd be curious to know how they'd view the installation of atheism in the universe. Queston is would a Dickens character like Ebeneezer still exist mumbling 'Humbug' in the world.
I don't see the point being made here. if the point was not merely to wee over atheism.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:27 AM
 
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I don't see the point being made here. if the point was not merely to wee over atheism.
Well I have to admit after I wrote it it may have come out that way. So no on that, I meant this. At this point I do not think I'd be off the scale if I note that this 'meeting-house' here could arguably be called The House of Humbug' with all its pitched battles where two sides go swinging back and forth on God and 'no gods', no religions etc. The din is up there on supposed 'humbug' from both positions. I don't know. Can atheism do it??? Will there be that 'conscientiousness' in the world as the poem notes? You guys sure talk the talk of ridding us from 'humbug!' I wish i could get a simulation in some earthly petri dish or somethng. But I truly wonder. It's all a mystery to me right now how the situation would look if God is not 'everywhere'. I'd think Longfellow would agree that some alleged 'humbug' works.
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:17 PM
 
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Well, as I have argued elsewhere, I think th would work. Atheists - those who think about it, anyway - care very much about moral questions, because not having a god -belief puts the responsibility for deciding what's right to do and what's not squarely on our own shoulders.

The 'humbug' debate is a rather different one. That is about whether it is correct, going by logic and evidence, to have a god -belief or not. Appealing to Faith rather concedes that point, anyway, and it then becomes more a question of whether god belief, without any sound reason to have one, is justified because it makes people behave better, or if it does, whether a secular society can't do as well, or well enough that the bottom line of it being right (if reason and evidence counts for anything) is worth losing out on a few people drifting about with happy smiles and tracts rather than in armed gangs.
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