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Old 02-16-2014, 12:04 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,846 posts, read 3,362,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Believe me, I understand how you feel.

It reminds me on 1940 when the British idiot Churchill got involved in a war with Germany and begged for our help. Of course, we helped poor old England, but then on Dec 11, 1941 Germany declared war on us, which cost us a lot of American lives.

I guess no good deed goes unpunished.
Well ... in truth, Hitler was just itching to declare war on the U.S. because not being able to sink American shipping was putting a big crimp in Doenitz's plan to starve Britain into submission. A lot of his U-boat skippers were making noise about wanting to sink U.S. ships and, besides, America was essentially neutral in name only by the time Pearl Harbor rolled around. Our war against Germany was inevitable, and we should be glad of it since the entirety of Europe would have fallen behind the Iron Curtain (remember that Eisenhower had to direct Allied forces into Belgium to head off the Red Army - which was determined to capture as much territory as possible before the surrender).

In fact the Soviets continued the Pacific war for another two weeks after the formal Japanese surrender just to capture more land.

But, meh, this is the wrong thread for all of this, so I won't hijack it with history discussions. *zips mouth*
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Old 02-16-2014, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Sitting beside Walden Pond
4,609 posts, read 4,119,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
But, meh, this is the wrong thread for all of this, so I won't hijack it with history discussions. *zips mouth*
I agree.

I just thought it was in very poor taste for a British person to call our beloved former president George Bush an idiot, so I had to respond in kind.
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Old 02-16-2014, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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The problem, or among the numerous problems associated with defining the nature of the god in which you believe, is that it will always involve a limited human being trying to describe something greater than his or her self. The result is typically a set of contradictory ideas, a traffic accident of logical shortcomings.


For example, if you embrace the Judeo/Christian tradition of an omniscient and all powerful god, you are then projecting a god which knows everything that is going to happen in advance. That being the case, then you have a god who knew in advance that if it created human beings, it would ultimately have to come down to earth, take on the form of a human, and endure horrible suffering on the cross in order to redeem them from their own mistakes.

The contradiction arises immediately in that you are assigning these motives to an entity which you have already defined as perfect, including being perfectly happy. If indeed there was a perfectly happy god, it would never experience any needs, including a need to create human beings, especially in light of knowing the price that god would have to pay to "save" them from themselves. So right away we are talking a god who seems less sensible than most humans...if you were perfectly happy, would you them set out to create a situation for yourself where you will have to suffer horribly? Suddenly that perfect god seems dumber than the average human. If the god is projected as all powerful, then surely it had the capacity to create a world where this problem was avoidable.

And of course the great believer response to this sort of musing is "Mystery of faith" or "We cannot hope to understand the motives of god", but this comes from the same people who make their living telling us what god wants and how we should conduct ourselves to please it.

All of the problems, such as the one identified in the OP, flow from this basic illogical dynamic...humans trying to define non human perfection, humans trying to identify the will of an entity which transcends humanity.
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Old 02-16-2014, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,102,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
So right away we are talking a god who seems less sensible than most humans...if you were perfectly happy, would you them set out to create a situation for yourself where you will have to suffer horribly? Suddenly that perfect god seems dumber than the average human. If the god is projected as all powerful, then surely it had the capacity to create a world where this problem was avoidable.

And of course the great believer response to this sort of musing is "Mystery of faith" or "We cannot hope to understand the motives of god", but this comes from the same people who make their living telling us what god wants and how we should conduct ourselves to please it.
You forgot "sin comes from free will, and free will is needed or we'd be ROBOTS!"

Ironically, they look forward to an eternity in heaven where there is no sin, and by their argument, therefore no free will, and therefore, everyone is a ROBOT.

Go figure ...
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:01 PM
 
40,168 posts, read 26,797,761 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
You forgot "sin comes from free will, and free will is needed or we'd be ROBOTS!"
Ironically, they look forward to an eternity in heaven where there is no sin, and by their argument, therefore no free will, and therefore, everyone is a ROBOT.
Go figure ...
You have it wrong, mordant. Sin comes from ignorance . . . it is "missing the mark." When all ignorance is removed sin disappears.
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You have it wrong, mordant. Sin comes from ignorance . . . it is "missing the mark." When all ignorance is removed sin disappears.
It's not my argument. I probably should have said "suffering comes from sin" as my first statement to make it more accurate, too.

But I'm not sure I'd buy your argument if I bought the sin argument.

If sin were simply a matter of being misinformed, then no one would sin once informed. "Oh, pardon me, dear sir, I did not know that rape was a sin. I will stop forthwith." The theist argument is that sin is continually missing the mark because of original sin or total depravity of man or rebellion or whatever.

MY position is that there is no such thing as sin; sin is just a self-loathing, shaming label given to human nature, which is our evolved default from our hunter-gatherer days. Get out of my territory or I'll bash your head in. That sort of thing. We teach children from a young age to override evolutionary programming by conforming to societal norms which allow us to cooperate. Rather than self-hatred for having to do that, turning the overriding of an evolutionary impulse into essentially fighting against one's own shadow, we should simply acknowledge our inherent nature and help each other rise above it. And we should OWN our inherent nature and quit blaming it on the influence of supernatural beings.

It's a little like some of these teen movies these days where the misunderstood, sensitive, good vampire learns not to feed on the blood of others and wins the heart of the heroine ;-)
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:45 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,987,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
I agree.

I just thought it was in very poor taste for a British person to call our beloved former president George Bush an idiot, so I had to respond in kind.
You mean our beloved "Dumbya"

Late night talk show hosts didn't need a cadre of writers for their nightly monolog, just someone to type "today George Bush said" into Google, and they had a mountain of material for their monolog.
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:01 PM
 
16,300 posts, read 24,987,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You have it wrong, mordant. Sin comes from ignorance . . . it is "missing the mark." When all ignorance is removed sin disappears.
First how about defining "sin", what exactly do you classify as sin, taking the lords name in vain, having false idols, lusting over the hawt wife of your friend? There are even people that truly believe you are a sinner if you ain't sitting in a church on Sunday mornings, I've met a couple of these mental midgets.

From the aspect of someone breaking man's law, the ignorant criminal (sinner) are easily discovered and stopped, usually being their own worst enemy and tripping themselves up.

It is the intelligent criminal (think Bernie Madoff) that is the most devious of sinners, and the one doing the most harm.

I'm just grateful that Bush was basically an incompetent boob, or we would be embroiled in 5 wars in the ME.

Or I don't have a flipping clue what you consider "sin"
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Old 02-16-2014, 04:04 PM
 
39,239 posts, read 10,913,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker45 View Post
Believe me, I understand how you feel.

It reminds me on 1940 when the British idiot Churchill got involved in a war with Germany and begged for our help. Of course, we helped poor old England, but then on Dec 11, 1941 Germany declared war on us, which cost us a lot of American lives.

I guess no good deed goes unpunished.
The only reason America came in was because Japan attacked Peal Harbour. Had it not been for that Roosevelt would have stayed out and continue to swap obsolete destroyers for prime Caribbean bases.

The difference between Germany and Iraq is that Germany was a palpable threat. Saddam wasn't. Even when it was checked out and no WMD's were found, Bush thought he knew best. I'm sorry if anyone is offended. I rate the US very highly and never forget that they saved our bacon in two world wars at considerable cost to themselves.

But a spade is a spade and a hoe is a hoe and Dubhya Bush is what he is.
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Old 02-16-2014, 04:12 PM
 
40,168 posts, read 26,797,761 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
It's not my argument. I probably should have said "suffering comes from sin" as my first statement to make it more accurate, too.

But I'm not sure I'd buy your argument if I bought the sin argument.

If sin were simply a matter of being misinformed, then no one would sin once informed. "Oh, pardon me, dear sir, I did not know that rape was a sin. I will stop forthwith." The theist argument is that sin is continually missing the mark because of original sin or total depravity of man or rebellion or whatever.

MY position is that there is no such thing as sin; sin is just a self-loathing, shaming label given to human nature, which is our evolved default from our hunter-gatherer days. Get out of my territory or I'll bash your head in. That sort of thing. We teach children from a young age to override evolutionary programming by conforming to societal norms which allow us to cooperate. Rather than self-hatred for having to do that, turning the overriding of an evolutionary impulse into essentially fighting against one's own shadow, we should simply acknowledge our inherent nature and help each other rise above it. And we should OWN our inherent nature and quit blaming it on the influence of supernatural beings.

It's a little like some of these teen movies these days where the misunderstood, sensitive, good vampire learns not to feed on the blood of others and wins the heart of the heroine ;-)
I was unclear. "Missing the mark" is to not reach the goal. The goal is agape love. Unloving acts are "missing the mark"(sin). Usually it is because of a focus on the carnal and temporal things and an ignorance of the real goal of life.
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