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Old 03-23-2014, 11:43 PM
 
40,084 posts, read 26,750,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I never heard of anyone being excommunicated from Atheism for any reason. If a person has not found any reason to believe in the existence of a deity they are an Atheist. The only thing Atheists have in common is they do not believe in the existence of God. Outside of that there probably are as many individual practices as there are atheists.
There is no designated category box all atheists have to fit in.
Why us humans think we have to ascribe labels to people still confuses me. If we went for truth in labeling every person would require a custom made label.
There is no single answer for the OP's question.
Just my opinion, but then again I am not an atheist and have no business speaking for any.
I agree, Wood. Atheism can be compatible with anything . . . BUT belief in God.
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Old 03-24-2014, 07:46 AM
 
39,120 posts, read 10,849,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I agree, Wood. Atheism can be compatible with anything . . . BUT belief in God.
Almost spot - on. Rather atheism is unrelated to anything -other than God-claims, and of course anything other than non -belief and one is not atheists.

But in another way you are dead right. As an atheist, all sorts of questions, about morality, fringe-science-claims (including UFO's, antediluvian civilizations, ghost, ghoulies and things that go bonk in the night, and ancestor -worship), politics and environmental issues become relevant and, while belief (or not) in any of those do not actually affect one's atheism, it is a good question as to whether they are compatible with atheism.

Perhaps though my first comment is the right one - it is unrelated. If ancestors are regarded as gods, and you worship them, you are not atheist. If you regard them as ancestors whose spirits live in the ancestor heaven and can help you out if you pray to them, but they are not gods, exactly, then you can still be an atheist. But it is sure more a matter of semantics than mindset.

(post coffee...ah that's better...)

Semantics can be made to look like a dog's dinner if over-applied 'Sorry, that's not an algebra matter- that's geometry.' Obviously there is a lot of over-lap. But some kind of subject demarcation is needed to avoid total confusion.

So, at the risk of being open to 'Well, suppose that ancestor - worshipper said that he was worshipping them as divine beings but didn't call them "Gods"...?' By someone more interested in picking holes in a rational position than in understanding it (and I am speaking purely hypothetically here, I do assure everybody), I would say that the mindset of atheism related to anything else other than gods is that of a rationalist.

The question should be:'Is ancestor - worship compatibule with a rationalist position?' Then it becomes clearer. The question is not the irrelevant one of whether the ancestors qualify as a god -question, but whether ancestor - worship was compatible with the rationalist mindset of an atheist having a rationalist worldview (if indeed that is the case, some atheists such as babies and rabbits do not, but I am of course talking about Thinking rather than technical atheists). I should say 'no' because the practice of praying to something that doesn't exist is not rational and the rational position is of course the same as with the god -question: there is no good evidence to support the belief that ancestors exists after they are dead. Except as atoms, and worshipping them in equally irrational.

Even worshipping the memory of them has slipped over the borderline from interest in one's forebears into silly rituals for one's own personal satisfaction, which really looks irrational to me.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-24-2014 at 08:26 AM..
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Old 03-24-2014, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 6,082,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Almost spot - on. Rather atheism is unrelated to anything -other than God-claims, and of course anything other than non -belief and one is not atheists.

But in another way you are dead right. As an atheist, all sorts of questions, about morality, fringe-science-claims (including UFO's, antediluvian civilizations, ghost, ghoulies and things that go bonk in the night, and ancestor -worship), politics and environmental issues become relevant and, while belief (or not) in any of those do not actually affect one's atheism, it is a good question as to whether they are compatible with atheism.

Perhaps though my first comment is the right one - it is unrelated. If ancestors are regarded as gods, and you worship them, you are not atheist. If you regard them as ancestors whose spirits live in the ancestor heaven and can help you out if you pray to them, but they are not gods, exactly, then you can still be an atheist. But it is sure more a matter of semantics than mindset.

(post coffee...ah that's better...)

Semantics can be made to look like a dog's dinner if over-applied 'Sorry, that's not an algebra matter- that's geometry.' Obviously there is a lot of over-lap. But some kind of subject demarcation is needed to avoid total confusion.

So, at the risk of being open to 'Well, suppose that ancestor - worshipper said that he was worshipping them as divine beings but didn't call them "Gods"...?' By someone more interested in picking holes in a rational position than in understanding it (and I am speaking purely hypothetically here, I do assure everybody), I would say that the mindset of atheism related to anything else other than gods is that of a rationalist.

The question should be:'Is ancestor - worship compatibule with a rationalist position?' Then it becomes clearer. The question is not the irrelevant one of whether the ancestors qualify as a god -question, but whether ancestor - worship was compatible with the rationalist mindset of an atheist having a rationalist worldview (if indeed that is the case, some atheists such as babies and rabbits do not, but I am of course talking about Thinking rather than technical atheists). I should say 'no' because the practice of praying to something that doesn't exist is not rational and the rational position is of course the same as with the god -question: there is no good evidence to support the belief that ancestors exists after they are dead. Except as atoms, and worshipping them in equally irrational.

Even worshipping the memory of them has slipped over the borderline from interest in one's forebears into silly rituals for one's own personal satisfaction, which really looks irrational to me.

YIKES!

What coffee was that?! A large Italian roast with a shot of espresso?
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Old 03-25-2014, 04:23 AM
 
39,120 posts, read 10,849,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
YIKES!

What coffee was that?! A large Italian roast with a shot of espresso?
I can't recall...but it left me shaking. But it's not anything new. Concepts rather than semantic definitions. 'What are you thinking and doing?' rather that 'what label are you putting on that?'

And that atheism is only the rationalist mindset or worldview applied to one single claim - the God-claim. If it isn't a god, atheism doesn't apply to it.

This is old -established stuff - the product of many a strong coffee.
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:25 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,730,245 times
Reputation: 1770
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I can't recall...but it left me shaking. But it's not anything new. Concepts rather than semantic definitions. 'What are you thinking and doing?' rather that 'what label are you putting on that?'

And that atheism is only the rationalist mindset or worldview applied to one single claim - the God-claim. If it isn't a god, atheism doesn't apply to it.

This is old -established stuff - the product of many a strong coffee.
Such a good post.
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