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A-theist = no-god = don't believe in god. Period. Don't complicate that simple fact ... that way lies madness.
Most atheists, particularly when not newly-minted and have had the full implications of their unbelief sink in, tend to be rationalist / empiricist / materialist types who reject the supernatural in all its forms. But it is possible to believe in some sort of supernatural order of things that is not populated with gods, and so long as one does not believe in gods, one is an atheist, even if not the sort of atheist most fellow atheists will resonate with and respect.
IMO it's confusing enough that the technical definition of agnosticism overlaps with atheism, without tossing the "r-bomb" into the mix. It will just make people's heads explode to no good purpose.
A-gnostic = no-knowledge = doesn't claim absolute knowledge about god. Such an absolute knowledge claim is so rare, at least literally speaking, that I think agnosticism is kind of a waste of discussion time. What theists often call agnosticism is actually just a theist with cognitive dissonance but a fear of letting go of their god illusions.
Knowledge claims should not be confused with probability assessments anyway. Agnosticism can and generally does exist along with a high degree of certainty about god's non-existence. They influence each other but are not the same thing.
My experience with talking to people who don't believe in some sort of a great creator God but who are superstitious in other ways is that they have a vague belief in some sort of an intelligent force that can influence fortune... either for good or bad... and that there are ways to influence this force in return. Chinese people in particular often have a vague belief in the influence of minor deities and/or their ancestors over events that occur in their lives, even though they may well deny believing in God. And they often tend to take the "better safe then sorry" approach to such possibilities. Of course few will admit that they really BELIEVE in such things, but on the other hand neither do they discount them entirely either. It's a part of their culture for many. Such quasi-supernatural beliefs, even when not entirely embraced as rational, are NOT reflective of atheism. As an atheist I find all aspects of superstition equally implausible, and I make no effort at all to "influence" unseen forces. Happily, up to this point I have been entirely protected by my ignorance.
My experience with talking to people who don't believe in some sort of a great creator God but who are superstitious in other ways is that they have a vague belief in some sort of an intelligent force that can influence fortune... either for good or bad... and that there are ways to influence this force in return. Chinese people in particular often have a vague belief in the influence of minor deities and/or their ancestors over events that occur in their lives, even though they may well deny believing in God. And they often tend to take the "better safe then sorry" approach to such possibilities. Of course few will admit that they really BELIEVE in such things, but on the other hand neither do they discount them entirely either. It's a part of their culture for many. Such quasi-supernatural beliefs, even when not entirely embraced as rational, are NOT reflective of atheism. As an atheist I find all aspects of superstition equally implausible, and I make no effort at all to "influence" unseen forces. Happily, up to this point I have been entirely protected by my ignorance.
I understand where you are coming from. At least part of the time, I have little doubt that retention of a belief in any form of supernatural causes some people to waste energy placating unseen realms, even if they no longer conceptualize them as actual gods. Are Yoda or Luke Skywalker, as depicted, theists even though they have a belief-system that has depersonalized gods into something called The Force? Is the real-world Taoism from which The Force was derived really theist? It does blur the lines. It's a little like Mystic claiming god = the universe. The universe is what it is, whether or not someone ascribes consciousness to it ... but the very choice of equating the two labels "god" and "all that is" suggests that whoever is making that equivalence has not truly Crossed Over to true unbelief in gods.
But it is possible to believe in some sort of supernatural order of things that is not populated with gods, and so long as one does not believe in gods, one is an atheist, even if not the sort of atheist most fellow atheists will resonate with and respect.
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I view this a a close call. When someone rejects the idea of a god, but then embraces things which require a suspension of natural law to be possible, things fall apart when you ask that person to identify the power or force behind these supernatural occurrences. Semantic refinements later, we are still left with a force or entity rather indistinguishable from the normal claims about a god.
I view this a a close call. When someone rejects the idea of a god, but then embraces things which require a suspension of natural law to be possible, things fall apart when you ask that person to identify the power or force behind these supernatural occurrences. Semantic refinements later, we are still left with a force or entity rather indistinguishable from the normal claims about a god.
Yes and then there is the problem that the supernatural is by definition not in the natural world and therefore is inaccessible to us denizens of the natural world, so it's rather a moot point. It is as much a child of sheer speculation as gods. It hides in knowledge gaps just like gods. The main difference is that it is impersonal and unconscious (as soon as you start ascribing consciousness to something you can't even see, then you really are talking about gods under another name anyway).
The reason I am only 99.9% as opposed to 100%, opposed to supernatural claims is that there is a possibility that some universe / reality contains ours, or lies alongside ours, multiverse-fashion, and that there is some tenuous point of contact / influence between them. This, if true, would not actually be a supernatural realm, merely a realm we are basically unaware of and don't currently know how to examine -- ultimately part of the natural world in the same way that stars invisible to the naked eye are; they can only be seen with instrumentation. In the same way that, 500 years ago, no one who mattered had yet made the mental leap to considering that the universe was unimaginably vast and ancient and infinite, it is possible (likely, in fact) that there is still "far more than is dream't of in our philosophy". The mistake is calling this "supernatural". I believe that ultimately nothing is supernatural, and that anything that theoretically would be truly supernatural would never be relevant anyway.
In the meantime, a default of skepticism is in order, and we must not seriously speculate on things concerning which there is no data.
I am an anti religion atheist who does not personally believe in anything spiritual. I am a humanist who has some minor eastern philosophical leanings. I'd really have to dissect my personal belief system if I wanted to thoroughly explain it all but I'm still in the life long process of figuring it all out.
Atheism and agnosticism tell me nothing about the religious beliefs of a person other than the fact that the person does not believe in deities or is uncertain about the existence of deities. In that respect, do you identify yourself as religious atheist/agnostic or irreligious atheist/agnostic?
Religious atheists and agnostics do exist, such as non-theist Quakers (Friends), Unitarian Universalists, or Christians-in-traditional-Christian-groups-who-maintain-atheism-or-agnosticism-as-a-theological-stance (aka "Christian Atheist" or "Christian Agnostic"), whatever that means.
To be atheist is to be A (without) Theos (God or gods or any such belief in God or Gods). All religions have in common some belief in or appeal to, the supernatural. Atheists have NO BELIEF in the supernatural. A true atheist is not someone who possesses any religious beliefs at all. A religious atheist is much like a pregnant virgin. These concepts are the product of the imagination of the religious.
I am an anti religion atheist who does not personally believe in anything spiritual. I am a humanist who has some minor eastern philosophical leanings. I'd really have to dissect my personal belief system if I wanted to thoroughly explain it all but I'm still in the life long process of figuring it all out.
define why you are "anti". that's huge. is it an emotional stance or a logical stance. "Spiritual" on a more logical level is emotional connection to the surroundings. Some have more and some have less. 2000 years ago they got it wrong. Buddha pretty much nailed for what he didn't know. And that confused-ous guy, I love his teachings.
To be atheist is to be A (without) Theos (God or gods or any such belief in God or Gods). All religions have in common some belief in or appeal to, the supernatural. Atheists have NO BELIEF in the supernatural. A true atheist is not someone who possesses any religious beliefs at all. A religious atheist is much like a pregnant virgin. These concepts are the product of the imagination of the religious.
I love gnostic athiests .. yes sir re bob .. they know.
I love gnostic athiests .. yes sir re bob .. they know.
Have you actually run across one? I have only encountered one who claimed to be a gnostic atheist, and that was becasue he had his own pretty out-there, unevidenced, conspiracy theory that he claimed invalidated the entire concept of "gods".
The longer I poke around, the more I wonder if the gnostic atheist is a similar phenomenon to Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster...
-NoCapo
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