U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: How plausible is this theory (explain)?
You've convinced me, where do I join your cult? 0 0%
Nope, totally don't buy it. 10 83.33%
Sorta of, but I believe X instead... 2 16.67%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-23-2014, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,879 posts, read 3,799,289 times
Reputation: 4622

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
Imagine two innocent children staring into the night sky, both asking the same question.
"Where do we come from?"
It's seems to be an obvious question.

Over the millennia each kid take a different path to answer the question.
One takes a path of science. Astronomy, geology, biology etc.. are all developed in an effort to answer the question.
Another takes a path that relies upon myth, legend, and individual experiences.

Notwithstanding what appears to refute creationists theory, thousands of years later, neither has the answer.
So they now debate who has the most Succinct data.
Who's data is better.
Who has the strongest theory.

They now stand facing each other with fists clinched.
No longer gazing into the sky.
That's a sweet whimsical story Oakback.
If you don't mind if I will just fill it out a bit.

One of the boys spent the millennia continuing to study the heavens. Over time he discovered that the earth we are sitting on is one of many planets within a solar system and that we are part of one of many of solar systems within a vast galaxy. He went on to discover that we live in a vast universe of many galaxies. In studying the red shift of those galaxies he discovered that the universe is expanding. He then discovered to his surprise that the expansion is accelerating. And he discovered that the universe is 13.8 billion years old.

The other boy couldn't be bothered to do any investigation so he just made up some stories instead. Sometimes he conceded a few of the other boys discoveries but mostly he resisted them.

The first boy had used his time to try to answer the question "where do we come from" and returned to the spot with many, if not all the answers, and much data that he had gathered.

The other boy had no data. Just things he had imagined to be true.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-23-2014, 09:54 AM
 
39,257 posts, read 10,922,331 times
Reputation: 5102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
Imagine two innocent children staring into the night sky, both asking the same question.
"Where do we come from?"
It's seems to be an obvious question.

Over the millennia each kid take a different path to answer the question.
One takes a path of science. Astronomy, geology, biology etc.. are all developed in an effort to answer the question.
Another takes a path that relies upon myth, legend, and individual experiences.


Notwithstanding what appears to refute creationists theory, thousands of years later, neither has the answer.
So they now debate who has the most Succinct data.
Who's data is better.
Who has the strongest theory.

They now stand facing each other with fists clinched.
No longer gazing into the sky.
That is an unfortunate part of growing up. Kids that were great friends at school under 11 were put into arbitrary classes and taught competition in the next school. A year later, they were separate nations.

We have something to learn and current modes of thought by those who claim to be authorities need re-examination.

I need hardly point out how those who have inherited these dismal mores from their forebears resist the idea of change as subversive and (appealing to supposed declines in morality) cal for a return to old time
values (if not Old Tyme religion).

We really need some new ideas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2014, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 6,085,863 times
Reputation: 981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne View Post
That's a sweet whimsical story Oakback.
If you don't mind if I will just fill it out a bit.

One of the boys spent the millennia continuing to study the heavens. Over time he discovered that the earth we are sitting on is one of many planets within a solar system and that we are part of one of many of solar systems within a vast galaxy. He went on to discover that we live in a vast universe of many galaxies. In studying the red shift of those galaxies he discovered that the universe is expanding. He then discovered to his surprise that the expansion is accelerating. And he discovered that the universe is 13.8 billion years old.

The other boy couldn't be bothered to do any investigation so he just made up some stories instead. Sometimes he conceded a few of the other boys discoveries but mostly he resisted them.

The first boy had used his time to try to answer the question "where do we come from" and returned to the spot with many, if not all the answers, and much data that he had gathered.

The other boy had no data. Just things he had imagined to be true.
I don't disagree with the extra "chapters" you have added to my "whimsical story"

Let me add another;
The kid with no data, is also excited and fascinated by what his friend has shared.
Now both kids go forth ( with different hypothesis ), using all tools at their disposal, to find the answer to their question.

The scientific method should not IMHO, threaten any theist.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2014, 10:34 AM
 
39,257 posts, read 10,922,331 times
Reputation: 5102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
I don't disagree with the extra "chapters" you have added to my "whimsical story"

Let me add another;
The kid with no data, is also excited and fascinated by what his friend has shared.
Now both kids go forth ( with different hypothesis ), using all tools at their disposal, to find the answer to their question.

The scientific method should not IMHO, threaten any theist.
Not if their beliefs were true. But it seems that a lot of these are being shown untrue and moreare following.

I'd feel threatened, and I think many of them would feel threatened, too, which is why we get pre-emptive denial, crickets and the clenched fists that you refer to.

I don't deny that the scientific kid may double hispinkies when kid 2 tellshim that all his work is delusion and what is said in an old book is fact.

It is better to be polite and patient..but it's a response that has to be learned.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2014, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 6,085,863 times
Reputation: 981
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Not if their beliefs were true. But it seems that a lot of these are being shown untrue and moreare following.

I'd feel threatened, and I think many of them would feel threatened, too, which is why we get pre-emptive denial, crickets and the clenched fists that you refer to.

I don't deny that the scientific kid may double hispinkies when kid 2 tellshim that all his work is delusion and what is said in an old book is fact.

It is better to be polite and patient..but it's a response that has to be learned.
I'm not threatened.
I'm fascinated.

I truly believe there are many more theists who would join me.

It's just that the ones you refer to, are the "squeaky wheel"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2014, 10:54 AM
 
39,257 posts, read 10,922,331 times
Reputation: 5102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
I'm not threatened.
I'm fascinated.

I truly believe there are many more theists who would join me.

It's just that the ones you refer to, are the "squeaky wheel"
They are certainly the ones that tend to be more visible- as indeed are those New or Militant atheists..(thenk yew...) tend to be more visible than the silent unbelievers.

Where we would join is in those who don't try to discredit science and what it finds - questioning it is fine. But there comes a stage where it turns into dismissal of the evidence - but well, rely on the gaps for god in keeping the idea on the table.

I would accept (as I said) that this can't be disproved but there is no real proof of it.

The argument about the probabilities could be conducted without clenched fists.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2014, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 6,085,863 times
Reputation: 981
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
They are certainly the ones that tend to be more visible- as indeed are those New or Militant atheists..(thenk yew...) tend to be more visible than the silent unbelievers.

Where we would join is in those who don't try to discredit science and what it finds - questioning it is fine. But there comes a stage where it turns into dismissal of the evidence - but well, rely on the gaps for god in keeping the idea on the table.

I would accept (as I said) that this can't be disproved but there is no real proof of it.

The argument about the probabilities could be conducted without clenched fists.
I concede we have two opposing "camps" here.

One begins with the assumption there is no deity.

The other, that there Is.

I also concede there is more empirical data in support of the former.

But I want the scientists to push on, full steam ahead.

I can't wait for the answers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2014, 11:34 AM
 
39,257 posts, read 10,922,331 times
Reputation: 5102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
I concede we have two opposing "camps" here.

One begins with the assumption there is no deity.

The other, that there Is.

I also concede there is more empirical data in support of the former.

But I want the scientists to push on, full steam ahead.

I can't wait for the answers.
It is interesting that 'No deity' is considered to be an atheist 'assumption'. I have heard this before and in conjunction with the demand that this be validated before this Belief is given any weight.

In fact logically, we would say that the universe and life in Here. That is indisputable,but how?

'We don't know' is not an assumption nor a claim.

'We do know-it was God' IS a claim and bears the burden of proof or some kind of substantiation.

Now, the theists may be able to make a case, but 'Well, you prove how it all happened without God' isn't it, much less 'Prove God doesn't exist, then'. But Believers really think these are valid arguments. And if you show that this isn't logic, well - logic is only a human invention.

And so it goes on..

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-23-2014 at 11:51 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2014, 02:13 PM
 
40,183 posts, read 26,806,349 times
Reputation: 6058
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
It is interesting that 'No deity' is considered to be an atheist 'assumption'. I have heard this before and in conjunction with the demand that this be validated before this Belief is given any weight.
In fact logically, we would say that the universe and life in Here. That is indisputable,but how?
'We don't know' is not an assumption nor a claim.
BUT . . . to assume that "No God" is the default IS a claim. "We don't know" Is the default, period. . . . something you can't seem to wrap your head around since you are so desirous of having "No God" be the default.
Quote:
'We do know-it was God' IS a claim and bears the burden of proof or some kind of substantiation.
This is a preference not a claim . . . as is your "No God." Why you cannot see that they are BOTH preferences for our ignorance a priori is beyond me.
Quote:
Now, the theists may be able to make a case, but 'Well, you prove how it all happened without God' isn't it, much less 'Prove God doesn't exist, then'. But Believers really think these are valid arguments. And if you show that this isn't logic, well - logic is only a human invention.
And so it goes on..
What is illogical about demanding that no claim be declared the default when "we do not know?" They are preferences, period. Why should your preference be given dominance over mine . . . since yours provides no answer to the existence of reality?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2014, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 6,085,863 times
Reputation: 981
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
It is interesting that 'No deity' is considered to be an atheist 'assumption'. I have heard this before and in conjunction with the demand that this be validated before this Belief is given any weight.

In fact logically, we would say that the universe and life in Here. That is indisputable,but how?

'We don't know' is not an assumption nor a claim. I stand corrected

'We do know-it was God' IS a claim and bears the burden of proof or some kind of substantiation. This does seem to fly in the face reason. But as long as we theists don't try to ram it down anyone's throats (this theist won't), let me have my "belief". And I'll let you have your "assumption"

Now, the theists may be able to make a case, but 'Well, you prove how it all happened without God' isn't it, much less 'Prove God doesn't exist, then'. But Believers really think these are valid arguments. And if you show that this isn't logic, well - logic is only a human invention.

And so it goes on..
ad infinitum

Last edited by june 7th; 03-23-2014 at 06:20 PM.. Reason: The color red is reserved for mod cuts within posts. Using any other color is fine. Thanks!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top