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View Poll Results: How plausible is this theory (explain)?
You've convinced me, where do I join your cult? 0 0%
Nope, totally don't buy it. 10 83.33%
Sorta of, but I believe X instead... 2 16.67%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-23-2014, 02:58 PM
 
354 posts, read 245,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I think what the Oakback/ AREQUIPA exchange shows is that while you cannot really reconcile atheism and theism, there can be reconciliation between atheists and theists, or at least between some atheists and theists.

If all theists were like Oakback, why, we would call off our annual War on Christmas.
That... is HILARIOUS! You drew me in with serious, then, WHAM! Well done.
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:10 PM
 
354 posts, read 245,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
I'd really love to be able to explain the "mystery" of faith. (that's really what it is to me).
Faith, or non-contingent belief, is also a mystery. Why would people have this? Why do some people reject it? I have lots of hypotheses, but my top contender is structural brain differences relating to the religious experience itself. Some people sense or feel this external presence of what's become referred to as a god. Other's, like myself, do not experience this and that makes non-contingent belief in a god nearly impossible.

Quote:
But you folks set a high standard. Believe me when I say, you all are truly a.....may I say blessing.
Including my mission to understand god belief, I also wish people to explore theirs. We must set a high standard because god claims are almost always extraordinary and thus require extraordinary proof.



Quote:
Afterall, it's very easy to try and articulate a viewpoint with those that share it.

It's much more of a challenge, and good exercise, to try with all of you.

I've heard recently that cerebral gymnastics help to delay dementia. And you guys just may help keep this aging mind in shape.
It's always easier to preach to the choir. My mind is getting old as well, perhaps we can help each other
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:21 PM
 
354 posts, read 245,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
Imagine two innocent children staring into the night sky, both asking the same question.
"Where do we come from?"
It's seems to be an obvious question.

Over the millennia each kid take a different path to answer the question.
One takes a path of science. Astronomy, geology, biology etc.. are all developed in an effort to answer the question.
Another takes a path that relies upon myth, legend, and individual experiences.


Notwithstanding what appears to refute creationists theory, thousands of years later, neither has the answer.
So they now debate who has the most Succinct data.
Who's data is better.
Who has the strongest theory.

They now stand facing each other with fists clinched.
No longer gazing into the sky.
This story encapsulates "The Life of Pi". We humans are story loving animals. The god story has been the better story for millennia. Science is rushing to write a better story but the universe stills seems cold and distant, while most human gods are personal, warm and comforting. God may still be a better story, but that doesn't mean it's true. In fact, in "The life of Pi" he tells you it isn't true. The true story was cold, uncaring and horrible, but the fanciful tale was the story people liked better.
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:34 PM
 
354 posts, read 245,864 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback
Now both kids go forth ( with different hypothesis ), using all tools at their disposal, to find the answer to their question.

The scientific method should not IMHO, threaten any theist
This suggests there is also a, for lack of a better term, religious method to understanding our reality. While I wont say we can't learn a great deal from humanity's religious past, I'm not sure it has much value going forward, at least when it comes to the physical nature of reality. It can still teach us a great deal about the human animal, however. From an anthropological standpoint, I find it very important.

.................................................. .................................................. .........................................


You responded positively to my query about worshiping a god. Just so I know where you are coming from, I'd assume this is the Christian god? <Don't worry, this isn't a trick question
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:31 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,741,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Magical x Miracle 12 - Read Magical x Miracle Chapter 12 Online - Page 17
Magical x Miracle 12 - Read Magical x Miracle Chapter 12 Online - Page 18

Okay, here's an idea, so just bear with me.

Okay, maybe there was an original Source of existence. But we're not gonna dwell on this.

Instead, we're gonna view humans as spiritual beings. We laugh, we cry, we pray, and do all sorts of things. Now, Christianity holds that viewing oneself as self-sufficient is arrogance. Atheism holds that there is something deeply wrong with dependence on a third party entity. So let's go at this from a purely humanistic standpoint to see if we can make sense of things.

Human beings do need each other to survive. A person completely cut off from other people typically ends up becoming a hermit, a psycho, or otherwise strange. If, then, you would want to find a non-Christian definition of Savior, it would be "any person who saves other people." You don't like that Christian groups seem woefully incompetent at helping the community at large? Guess what you have to do? Do it yourself! Care about other people, let them help, and help them too. Do charity organizations come about from just praying about them, or do people actually have found them, maintain them, and care for them? (Rhetorical)

Likewise, the idea of Creator is "anyone who creates." When you live, that's practically everyone. When you make art. When you plant a tree. Seeing someone of the opposite sex and... you get the idea. Where before there was nothing at all, suddenly you had a ton of pleasure and nine months later, a new child. So, go out and have more children! Oh, and plant more trees.

In other words, we don't need to believe in a higher power, because higher power is simply about how we live. I dunno what this means in terms of prayer and afterlife, are you praying to yourself? Do you in fact have the ability to live on, just in terms of willpower? Thoughts.
Why would anyone leave their children alone so that the brothers and sisters can take care of each other by themselves?
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 6,081,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
This suggests there is also a, for lack of a better term, religious method to understanding our reality. While I wont say we can't learn a great deal from humanity's religious past, I'm not sure it has much value going forward, at least when it comes to the physical nature of reality. It can still teach us a great deal about the human animal, however. From an anthropological standpoint, I find it very important.

If I can get just one message across the my friendly atheists, it would be this.
There are well meaning theists, who genuinely desire to do good, despite their limitations.
And yes I know, theists do not have monopoly on acts of charity.

Allow me to paraphrase one of my favorite passages;
"True religion, is coming to the help of widows and orphans"
And people who genuinely try to live that, can still be a positive force in this ever increasing secular world of ours.
[BI hope it has "value"




You responded positively to my query about worshiping a god. Just so I know where you are coming from, I'd assume this is the Christian god? <Don't worry, this isn't a trick question


yes

Last edited by june 7th; 03-23-2014 at 06:17 PM.. Reason: The color red is reserved for mod cuts within posts. Using any other color is fine. Thanks!
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Old 03-24-2014, 06:11 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,938,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
BUT . . . to assume that "No God" is the default IS a claim.
Who is assuming that there's no god, again? Oh, that's right, no one. Lack of belief in god is a conclusion based on a variety of reasons, including but not limited to a lack of evidence.

You can continue to beat up on stuff no one is actually claiming, but all that does is make it look like you can't actually address what real people are really saying about their beliefs. Whatever makes you feel better.
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Old 03-24-2014, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,084,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
Faith, or non-contingent belief, is also a mystery. Why would people have this? Why do some people reject it? I have lots of hypotheses, but my top contender is structural brain differences relating to the religious experience itself. Some people sense or feel this external presence of what's become referred to as a god.
In other words, agency inference. Logically it would be stronger and more detailed in some, depending on their brain wiring and genetics and genetic expression, and it would also be influenced by brain plasticity effects ... how their life experiences have influenced and reinforced these tendencies.

I've also seen studies in the past that show differences between conservative and liberal thinkers that relate to what is needed by an individual to feel safe and secure. Established tradition (perceived or real) and deep history are tremendously comforting to some people, while others are indifferent to it. This has only multiplied the appeal of various religions as they have matured into multigenerational and even multimillennial phenomena.
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Old 03-24-2014, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 6,081,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
In other words, agency inference. Logically it would be stronger and more detailed in some, depending on their brain wiring and genetics and genetic expression, and it would also be influenced by brain plasticity effects ... how their life experiences have influenced and reinforced these tendencies.

I've also seen studies in the past that show differences between conservative and liberal thinkers that relate to what is needed by an individual to feel safe and secure. Established tradition (perceived or real) and deep history are tremendously comforting to some people, while others are indifferent to it. This has only multiplied the appeal of various religions as they have matured into multigenerational and even multimillennial phenomena.
NotaTheist may be on to something here.

Maybe I do have "faith-itis".

I think there are many "christians" who have faith in the bible, their church, their pastor, their parents, their tradition.
None of which are God.

Now...what would be your "supposition", should you experiment on my brain.
Would you have any preconceived ideas that may prejudice your inquiry?

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Old 03-25-2014, 04:21 AM
 
39,071 posts, read 10,842,814 times
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I think we might. If we carried out some sort of experiments to find out what was causing faith in humans, we would probably be looking for natural, not to say evolutionary, causes.

Mystic phd has made the point that we may trace the religious feelings we get to something happening in the brain, but that does not mean that this is not just the method we have for communicating with God.

Science method should be aware of this and be looking to eliminate bias. Though again, how we (I am supposing this is atheists carrying out the experiment to see whether it's God or Not) would find out one way or the other is a question.

Perhaps the experiment method is already there - consistency of results. Though there is an immediate problem with non-co-operation of the Subject.
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