U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-09-2014, 09:17 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,642,063 times
Reputation: 1860

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhans123 View Post
About three years ago I heard a voice in my head (not audibly) which I presumed to be God tell me to open my Bible to a certain book and chapter, where said book and chapter was located, and a synopsis of the content I would find in this portion of the Bible. What I found on that page was exactly what I'd heard in my mind. Since then I have had that same voice in my head tell me to read certain passages but they either do not make any sense as a single passage, or sometimes do not exist. I realize many of you will raise an eyebrow in skepticism, as I still do myself frankly; likewise, I find myself in a difficult position these days hoping to eventually make sense of things. What I do find is that in my more religious periods I am accompanied with a recurring thought process of wondering if what I'm doing is right or wrong, am I going to hell or am I not, and things of that nature.

I would appreciate and welcome any thoughts or general feedback you all have to offer. Thanks if you took the time to read all of this!
In other words no better than chance and coincidence. But we attribute more significance to those things that approach and/or exactly match one of our expectations. I suggest a little leason in probability:


It Could Just Be Coincidence! - YouTube
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-10-2014, 06:09 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,942,522 times
Reputation: 1804
Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
I don't really see how people can dismiss Pascal's Wager.
If a god is so feeble that I can trick it into thinking it should reward me, how much of a god is it really?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2014, 10:54 AM
 
39,217 posts, read 10,895,806 times
Reputation: 5097
Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
Seems you are making a leap in your assertion of free will and the afterlife. God merely removes the memory of your love ones who did not believe. I am not seeing how that = not having free will. Rejoicing in their suffering? Another leap.

There is nothing false or incomplete about Pascal's Wager. It is quite straight forward.

Christian God is real - Nonbeliever is screwed

Christian God is fake - Believer is not screwed.

Your points about other Gods and what not are another topic altogether.
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
Didn't the angels have free will to rebel against God?

We simply do not know the parameters of heaven. Thus any speculation is just that, speculation.




Nope, you might would have a point if Pascal never disclosed which God his wager was for. However we know he was talking about and made the wager on the grounds of the Christian God.

You have yet to show me how believers lose in the wager proposed by Pascal.

As I pointed out in the previous point. Pascal's Wager is pretty straight forward.

Too straightforward. This assumes that it is a straight choice between the Christian God or not.

It is irrelevant that Blaize Pascal assumed that there was only one possible God. There was no way he could know that and thus his wager was flawed from the start.

If it is the muslim God that is real, both the Christians and the Unbelievers are screwed.

Quite apart from that, Blaize Pascal is assuming that it doesn't matter which Christian sect one believes in. If it is Catholicism that is the right Christianity, the non -catholic is screwed as much as the non - believer. You must see that Pascal's wager is fatally flawed - as Pascal saw himself.

You may say that, so long as one believes is the tenets of Christianity, it doesn't matter which Christianity one belongs to. But are you sure of that? Isn't it supposition on your part that it doesn't matter whether one is Baptist or Mormon or Quaker or Greek orthodox or catholic or Coptic?

It also assumes that that there is some downside for non - believers, or wrong believers. Like what? Hellthreat? If it just not being unified with God, I can live with that quite happily. In that respect, Not to take pascal's wager would seem a very good bet indeed as I couldn't lose whether there is a god or not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2014, 11:50 AM
 
675 posts, read 442,417 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
If a god is so feeble that I can trick it into thinking it should reward me, how much of a god is it really?
Huh?

The Bible doesn't put any stipulations on belief / faith, only that it is sincere.

Not sure where you are getting tricking. That would only be if the belief was not sincere.

Go back and re-read the example / scenario I gave.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2014, 11:58 AM
 
675 posts, read 442,417 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Too straightforward. This assumes that it is a straight choice between the Christian God or not.

It is irrelevant that Blaize Pascal assumed that there was only one possible God. There was no way he could know that and thus his wager was flawed from the start.

If it is the muslim God that is real, both the Christians and the Unbelievers are screwed.

Quite apart from that, Blaize Pascal is assuming that it doesn't matter which Christian sect one believes in. If it is Catholicism that is the right Christianity, the non -catholic is screwed as much as the non - believer. You must see that Pascal's wager is fatally flawed - as Pascal saw himself.

You may say that, so long as one believes is the tenets of Christianity, it doesn't matter which Christianity one belongs to. But are you sure of that? Isn't it supposition on your part that it doesn't matter whether one is Baptist or Mormon or Quaker or Greek orthodox or catholic or Coptic?

It also assumes that that there is some downside for non - believers, or wrong believers. Like what? Hellthreat? If it just not being unified with God, I can live with that quite happily. In that respect, Not to take pascal's wager would seem a very good bet indeed as I couldn't lose whether there is a god or not.
What do you mean by straight choice?

It is merely the choice and outcomes between a non believer and a believer in relation to Christian theology. Nothing more, nothing less.

Even if he assumed there was only one possible God (do we even know this to be the case? if so can I see some quotes of him stating such?) the wager is not dependent on such thoughts and thus that is irrelevant.

If someone makes another wager, however switching the Christian God for the Muslim God than yes both the Christian and nonbeliever would be screwed. That is another wager altogether that has it's own possible validity just as the one Pascal proposed.

Catholic worship the same God as the Southern Baptist. Not sure I get that point. Pascal was talking about the God of the Bible. Plain and simple.

There is a downside for nonbelievers. Heaven / hell. Whether you can live with not going to heaven and going to hell is irrelevant. The point is the believer comes out on top in the form of going to heaven and not going to hell.

As I pointed out to the other poster, the wager in it's context is valid and plausible.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2014, 12:01 PM
 
16,105 posts, read 17,923,003 times
Reputation: 15897
Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post

As I pointed out to the other poster, the wager in it's context is valid and plausible.
Not really as your scenario of the person making the wager then becoming a sincere believer is not based in reality. Pretending to believe generally does not lead to belief.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2014, 12:08 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,253,561 times
Reputation: 1317
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Not really as your scenario of the person making the wager then becoming a sincere believer is not based in reality. Pretending to believe generally does not lead to belief.
For some people, I guess hypocrisy really is a virtue!

-NoCapo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2014, 12:09 PM
 
675 posts, read 442,417 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Not really as your scenario of the person making the wager then becoming a sincere believer is not based in reality. Pretending to believe generally does not lead to belief.
Yes really. Did you need read my example?

John having never been exposed to Christianity decides to believe in God due to Pascal's Wager. On the onset his belief is faulty in that it lacks true conviction. However, over time, his once faulty belief molds into true belief due to reading the Bible, praying, fellowshipping, conviction through the Holy Spirit, etc.

At the end of that example, no where can you find pretending to believe. What you have is sincere belief due to the numerous things I outlined.

Now, will this happen for everyone. Ovcourse not. That is not the point I am trying to make.

I am only stating one can / it's possible to gain true believe from this Wager.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2014, 12:27 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,253,561 times
Reputation: 1317
Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
If someone makes another wager, however switching the Christian God for the Muslim God than yes both the Christian and nonbeliever would be screwed. That is another wager altogether that has it's own possible validity just as the one Pascal proposed.
Yep, so in reality to choose a faith by this method one would need to evaluate every religion, not just against atheism, but against each other. This method fails when religion is pitted against religion, becasue both sides are making the outlandish claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
Catholic worship the same God as the Southern Baptist. Not sure I get that point. Pascal was talking about the God of the Bible. Plain and simple.
Yeah, not quite. I was raised Baptist and was quite plainly taught that adhering to Catholic doctrine will land you in Hell. Likewise, up until the ecumenical movement, and still among some very conservative Catholic sects, being a Protestant is a quick road to the fires below. And that isn't even counting that Calvinists, for whom the wager is meaningless, becasue God chose you to be saved, you don't get the "choice".

What is very interesting is that Pascal appears to have been heavily influenced by Jansenist theology, which was a school of thought within Catholicism at the time that was very focused on predestination, sort of a calvinist variation of Catholicism. It is quite likely that whatever god concept pascal had in mind, may not have been the same one you have in mind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
There is a downside for nonbelievers. Heaven / hell. Whether you can live with not going to heaven and going to hell is irrelevant. The point is the believer comes out on top in the form of going to heaven and not going to hell.

As I pointed out to the other poster, the wager in it's context is valid and plausible.
And as pointed out before of course it works in "context" becasue context is an atrificial, stilted setting specifically designed to produce the desired result. That is the underlying complain, it that the example is contrived, and thus not applicable to the real world. You seem to admit that in one breath and then contradict it with the next.

Nevertheles, I don't think it is very useful to keep belaboring the point. You clearly have an agenda here, and won't be sidetracked by things like reason and logic...

-NoCapo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2014, 12:48 PM
 
675 posts, read 442,417 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Yep, so in reality to choose a faith by this method one would need to evaluate every religion, not just against atheism, but against each other. This method fails when religion is pitted against religion, becasue both sides are making the outlandish claims.
Not really. As I pointed out Pascals Wager was designed for a non believer and believer in regards to the Christian God. Your point, which is a valid point, however, it is one of another debate altogether. The wager Pascal proposed is still valid within it's designed context regardless of other religions & Gods.

Quote:
Yeah, not quite. I was raised Baptist and was quite plainly taught that adhering to Catholic doctrine will land you in Hell. Likewise, up until the ecumenical movement, and still among some very conservative Catholic sects, being a Protestant is a quick road to the fires below. And that isn't even counting that Calvinists, for whom the wager is meaningless, becasue God chose you to be saved, you don't get the "choice".
You again are raising a separate point altogether. Yes the doctrine is different, that I don't dispute. However, the God is the same. Both Baptists and Catholics worship and pray to the same God.


Quote:
And as pointed out before of course it works in "context" becasue context is an atrificial, stilted setting specifically designed to produce the desired result. That is the underlying complain, it that the example is contrived, and thus not applicable to the real world. You seem to admit that in one breath and then contradict it with the next.

Nevertheles, I don't think it is very useful to keep belaboring the point. You clearly have an agenda here, and won't be sidetracked by things like reason and logic...

-NoCapo
It most certainly is applicable to the real world as it is possible and valid within it's designed context.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top