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Old 06-10-2014, 01:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
Not really. As I pointed out Pascals Wager was designed for a non believer and believer in regards to the Christian God. Your point, which is a valid point, however, it is one of another debate altogether. The wager Pascal proposed is still valid within it's designed context regardless of other religions & Gods.
You keep repeating this, and I keep agreeing. It is valid in its context, which is what makes it useless in reality, becasue it's context is not the same as reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
You again are raising a separate point altogether. Yes the doctrine is different, that I don't dispute. However, the God is the same. Both Baptists and Catholics worship and pray to the same God.
They both claim to worship the same God, but their definitions of God have different thresholds for heaven. Thus is you are a good Catholic, and baptist god is real, then to hell you go. For the purposes of pascal's wager, every single doctrinal conception of God that has different ideas about what is required of the believer, and about heaven and hell must be considered independantly. You cannot lump them together anymore than you can lump YHWH, Allah, Coyote, and Odin together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
It most certainly is applicable to the real world as it is possible and valid within it's designed context.
This is just like saying, "It most certainly is blue, as long as blue is red". The context presupposes a singular definition of God, a binary choice, and an arbitrary assignation of value. In reality, even within Chirstianity alone, this is not an accurate picture. Is salvation by faith alone, or are works required? Is the Bible the sole authority or is Church Tradition inspired? Which Church Tradition? Is God triune or one? Is Jesus Divine, Is there a Hell? Do you even have the ability to choose God? Every single one of these viewpoints is represented within Christianity. Your interpretatoin of Pascal's Wager assumes that all of this is unimportant, and assumes your theology is the only one to be concerned about. you are in essence assuming that which the thought experiment is trying to rationally prove.

To illustrate my point, apply Pascal's wager on atheism vs Islam? Which is the logical choice? Are you ready to convert now? Like you said, if you choose to follow Islam eventually you will come to believe it, and then you can go to paradise.

If you didn't convert, why not?

-NoCapo
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,957 posts, read 6,495,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
At the end of the day the wager still stands and has "potential' validity regardless of the things you mention ie heaven/hell, limited parameters, etc.

Christian God is real - Non believers suffer
Christian God is fake - Believers do not suffer

Whether you think it is meanless is beside the point.

Enjoyed the exchange none the less.
I think you've posted this 3 times now.

What is going to happen to me and do you think it's a fair punishment? Seems my only crime during my life in this fake scenario is not being a slave to god.

Do you have any idea of what my punishment will be?
Is your loving god going to torture me with fire forever?
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
They both claim to worship the same God, but their definitions of God have different thresholds for heaven. Thus is you are a good Catholic, and baptist god is real, then to hell you go. For the purposes of pascal's wager, every single doctrinal conception of God that has different ideas about what is required of the believer, and about heaven and hell must be considered independantly. You cannot lump them together anymore than you can lump YHWH, Allah, Coyote, and Odin together.
You are confusing different doctrine with a different God. Me and you could worship a statue but in different ways due to various interpretations and text. We are still worshiping the same statue, just in a different fashion. The Catholic and Christian worship the same God.

Quote:
This is just like saying, "It most certainly is blue, as long as blue is red". The context presupposes a singular definition of God, a binary choice, and an arbitrary assignation of value. In reality, even within Chirstianity alone, this is not an accurate picture. Is salvation by faith alone, or are works required? Is the Bible the sole authority or is Church Tradition inspired? Which Church Tradition? Is God triune or one? Is Jesus Divine, Is there a Hell? Do you even have the ability to choose God? Every single one of these viewpoints is represented within Christianity. Your interpretatoin of Pascal's Wager assumes that all of this is unimportant, and assumes your theology is the only one to be concerned about. you are in essence assuming that which the thought experiment is trying to rationally prove.
You are bringing up different issues and topics altogether. Which has merit. Just not in Pascal's Wager in it's simplistic form and intended purposes.

Quote:
To illustrate my point, apply Pascal's wager on atheism vs Islam? Which is the logical choice? Are you ready to convert now? Like you said, if you choose to follow Islam eventually you will come to believe it, and then you can go to paradise.

If you didn't convert, why not?

-NoCapo
Sure lets apply it to Islam.

Islam is the logical choice due to expected outcomes. Practically the same Wager as the atheist and the Christian believer. Maybe atheism and Buddhism is a better wager?

And btw I never said any WILL eventually gain true belief, only it was possible.
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John13 View Post
I think you've posted this 3 times now.

What is going to happen to me and do you think it's a fair punishment? Seems my only crime during my life in this fake scenario is not being a slave to god.

Do you have any idea of what my punishment will be?
Is your loving god going to torture me with fire forever?
What will happen to you? The Bible says you will not inherit the Kingdom of God and instead be cast into hell.

Do I think it is fair? Yes, it was your choice to reject God's gift of salvation.

Do I have any idea what your punishment will be? Well, there are two different opinions on this within Christianity. One is eternal pain and suffering. The other is an eternity of separation from God.
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
You are confusing different doctrine with a different God. Me and you could worship a statue but in different ways due to various interpretations and text. We are still worshiping the same statue, just in a different fashion. The Catholic and Christian worship the same God.
And for the purposes of evaluating probabilities and expectatoins they are different, because if the hardline Baptists are right, the Catholics are the same as atheists. After all if you remove doctrine fromt he equation, then there is no reason to expect that believers get heaven, and non-believers get hell. likewise, if doing things the Catholic way is necessary, then the Baptist is roasting like a marshmallow.

Two conjectures that have a different set of requirements for rewards and punishments, or different versions of rewards and punishments have to be treated differently, if fo no other reason than the mathematics that underlie the wager require it. Each outcome must be weighted by its probablility, and each of these posibilities leads to different outcomes. The fact that you don't appear to understand the math behind this makes it difficult to explain. Have you read Pascal's original formulation? Maybe that would make it clearer, as he approaches it as a game of chance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
Sure lets apply it to Islam.

Islam is the logical choice due to expected outcomes. Practically the same Wager as the atheist and the Christian believer. Maybe atheism and Buddhism is a better wager?
No, This was what I intended. So you have determined that Islam is the better choice. Have you reverted to Islam yet? If not, why not? Clearly, from Pascal's wager you have determined it is the logical choice...
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
And for the purposes of evaluating probabilities and expectatoins they are different, because if the hardline Baptists are right, the Catholics are the same as atheists. After all if you remove doctrine fromt he equation, then there is no reason to expect that believers get heaven, and non-believers get hell. likewise, if doing things the Catholic way is necessary, then the Baptist is roasting like a marshmallow.
Not necessarily. It is possible for a Catholic to be saved even if some of their doctrine is wrong. Likewise if the Catholic doctrine is right in relation to the Baptist. The only thing that for sure determines salvation in relation to the Christian God is putting faith in Jesus Christ. Of which both the Catholic and Baptist can do regardless of the different doctrine and interpretations.

Quote:
Two conjectures that have a different set of requirements for rewards and punishments, or different versions of rewards and punishments have to be treated differently, if fo no other reason than the mathematics that underlie the wager require it. Each outcome must be weighted by its probablility, and each of these posibilities leads to different outcomes. The fact that you don't appear to understand the math behind this makes it difficult to explain. Have you read Pascal's original formulation? Maybe that would make it clearer, as he approaches it as a game of chance...
In Pascal's Wager we know what the requirements for rewards and punishments are. Being saved or not being saved. Now what intels that is another topic altogether.

Quote:
No, This was what I intended. So you have determined that Islam is the better choice. Have you reverted to Islam yet? If not, why not? Clearly, from Pascal's wager you have determined it is the logical choice...
I am not an atheist. So the wager between the atheism and Islam doesn't apply to me. For you to ask me such question it would have to involve Christianity and another religion or train of thought.
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Old 06-10-2014, 05:51 PM
 
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Good, so why wouldn't you wager that Islam was correct instead of Christianity?
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
I am not an atheist. So the wager between the atheism and Islam doesn't apply to me. For you to ask me such question it would have to involve Christianity and another religion or train of thought.
So what you are saying is the context of the wager is not the same as the real world, that I am not presenting all the choices... That is what I was saying too! Glad we agree.

But to take this further, try this

compare the Christian God vs a god we'll call Bob. God promises that if you believe you'll go to heaven (infinite good) and if you don't you go to hell ( infinite bad). Bob promises the same thing, only Bob will split your soul in two, making two of you, but leave each "you" connected to the other, so each one feels his own experience plus that of the other. How? well... he's Bob! He can do whatever he wants!

So now the wager is this if you believe in God and you are right you get infinite reward, but if you are wrong you get 2* infinite punishment. If you believe in Bob and are right you get 2 * infinite reward, but only infinite punishment. Based on Pascal's wager believing in Bob is now infinitely better that believing in God, so you should switch to Bob-ism.

Even if you don't really believe in Bob now, you can choose to do the things he has commanded and eventually you might develop a sincere faith in Bob, which would you grant you double heaven.

Now are you ready to believe in Bob? Think carefully because this is exactly what you are asking us non believers to do...

-NoCapo
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,957 posts, read 6,495,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
What will happen to you? The Bible says you will not inherit the Kingdom of God and instead be cast into hell.

Do I think it is fair? Yes, it was your choice to reject God's gift of salvation.

Do I have any idea what your punishment will be? Well, there are two different opinions on this within Christianity. One is eternal pain and suffering. The other is an eternity of separation from God.
It's truly amazing to me that any human being with a functioning brain could follow such nonsense.

No god gave me or anyone else any "gift." I do not want anything to do with this fictitious invisable fake egomaniac who has the character of a monster. I should also add mean and despicable.
Have fun being his slave. It will get you nowhere because once you are dead, you are dead.
Afterlife is just like before life - nothing.
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:41 PM
 
675 posts, read 441,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Good, so why wouldn't you wager that Islam was correct instead of Christianity?
You are talking about another topic altogether ie what is correct vs simply weighing expect outcomes of said beliefs. Two different things.
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