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Old 06-10-2014, 06:50 PM
 
675 posts, read 442,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
So what you are saying is the context of the wager is not the same as the real world, that I am not presenting all the choices... That is what I was saying too! Glad we agree.

But to take this further, try this

compare the Christian God vs a god we'll call Bob. God promises that if you believe you'll go to heaven (infinite good) and if you don't you go to hell ( infinite bad). Bob promises the same thing, only Bob will split your soul in two, making two of you, but leave each "you" connected to the other, so each one feels his own experience plus that of the other. How? well... he's Bob! He can do whatever he wants!

So now the wager is this if you believe in God and you are right you get infinite reward, but if you are wrong you get 2* infinite punishment. If you believe in Bob and are right you get 2 * infinite reward, but only infinite punishment. Based on Pascal's wager believing in Bob is now infinitely better that believing in God, so you should switch to Bob-ism.

Even if you don't really believe in Bob now, you can choose to do the things he has commanded and eventually you might develop a sincere faith in Bob, which would you grant you double heaven.

Now are you ready to believe in Bob? Think carefully because this is exactly what you are asking us non believers to do...

-NoCapo
What I am saying is simply the proposed wager in it's designed context is valid.

All the other issues you raise, while valid, are of other debates altogether and do not change the validity of Pascal's Wager.

Nice scenario you presented, however, that is not a valid comparison as Pascal's Wager uses the worlds largest religion (double the size of it's nearest competitor) while Bobism is a fictional religion made up on the spot that no one actually prescribes to.
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:52 PM
 
675 posts, read 442,200 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by John13 View Post
It's truly amazing to me that any human being with a functioning brain could follow such nonsense.

No god gave me or anyone else any "gift." I do not want anything to do with this fictitious invisable fake egomaniac who has the character of a monster. I should also add mean and despicable.
Have fun being his slave. It will get you nowhere because once you are dead, you are dead.
Afterlife is just like before life - nothing.
Was your question not under the assumption God was real? Go back and looked what you asked.

You know there is no afterlife how?
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,969 posts, read 6,506,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
Was your question not under the assumption God was real? Go back and looked what you asked.

You know there is no afterlife how?
No evidence.

I'm a former Christian and have been an atheist for the last 40 years.
There is no god.

Apparently I made a poor attempt to present to you who you are worshipping.
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Old 06-10-2014, 07:06 PM
 
675 posts, read 442,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John13 View Post
No evidence.

I'm a former Christian and have been an atheist for the last 40 years.
There is no god.

Apparently I made a poor attempt to present to you who you are worshipping.
Huh?

The questions you asked me was under the assumption God was real.

You know there is no God how?

Btw no evidence doesn't necessarily mean one thing or another.

There is no evidence or proof I took a nap today. However I did.
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Old 06-10-2014, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,969 posts, read 6,506,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
Huh?

The questions you asked me was under the assumption God was real.

You know there is no God how?

Btw no evidence doesn't necessarily mean one thing or another.

There is no evidence or proof I took a nap today. However I did.
Obviously you did not put much thought into it. I understand, thinking is hard.

The "nap" comparison is absurd because it was an event that did take place. In other words, it was real.

Quote:
You know there is no God how?
Again, no evidence. Too many bad people in the world and nothing to stop unfair diseases especially being born with a disability. No god to stop any weather disasters either. Even churches aren't saved from them.

Not saying they all are like this but some of the worst people I have dealt with in my life were hard core bible thumpers and churchgoers.

I cannot see any god nor do I hear voices.

As I said the evidence is overwhelming.
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Old 06-10-2014, 07:22 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,252,501 times
Reputation: 1317
Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
Nice scenario you presented, however, that is not a valid comparison as Pascal's Wager uses the worlds largest religion (double the size of it's nearest competitor) while Bobism is a fictional religion made up on the spot that no one actually prescribes to.
Ah,ah,ah not so fast. Pascal's Wager is about choosing the belief that has the best expected return, not about evidence or popularity. If Pascal's Wager is valid, then so is this. Any ground on which you can challenge my wager, you can also question Pascal's Wager.

You argue that Bobism is a product of Man's (mine in particular) imagination, I argue that so is the Christian God. You argue that Christianity is the most popular religion, I argue that there are more people who don't believe it than people who do.

Ultimately, this is why Pascal's wager fails; We don't choose our beliefs based on statistics.

If you did, you would convert to Bobism, because I can conveniently assert that the Bobist heaven is defined to always be better than the non-Bobist heaven and the Bobist hell hotter than any other. But, push come to shove, you don't believe that Pascal's wager is a valid way of choosing what to believe.

What a coincidence, neither do I...

-NoCapo
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Old 06-10-2014, 07:25 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,252,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
You are talking about another topic altogether ie what is correct vs simply weighing expect outcomes of said beliefs. Two different things.
Exactly what I said! Pascal's wager is about weighing outcomes. Therefore, if it is a valid way of determining belief, I should expect my first convert to Bobism very soon! I'll be waiting

-NoCapo
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Old 06-10-2014, 07:30 PM
 
675 posts, read 442,200 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Ah,ah,ah not so fast. Pascal's Wager is about choosing the belief that has the best expected return, not about evidence or popularity. If Pascal's Wager is valid, then so is this. Any ground on which you can challenge my wager, you can also question Pascal's Wager.

You argue that Bobism is a product of Man's (mine in particular) imagination, I argue that so is the Christian God. You argue that Christianity is the most popular religion, I argue that there are more people who don't believe it than people who do.

Ultimately, this is why Pascal's wager fails; We don't choose our beliefs based on statistics.

If you did, you would convert to Bobism, because I can conveniently assert that the Bobist heaven is defined to always be better than the non-Bobist heaven and the Bobist hell hotter than any other. But, push come to shove, you don't believe that Pascal's wager is a valid way of choosing what to believe.

What a coincidence, neither do I...

-NoCapo
Why yes you are correct in one sense, however you have to understand Pascal's Wager would have been no wager at all if he used Bobism as no one would have taken him seriously.

Christianity is the largest religion in the world, doubling its nearest competitor.

So the wager you proposed is not comparable to the one Pascal proposed.

Atheism is a certainly a well founded belief, as with Christianity in its following.
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Old 06-10-2014, 07:33 PM
 
675 posts, read 442,200 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by John13 View Post
Obviously you did not put much thought into it. I understand, thinking is hard.

The "nap" comparison is absurd because it was an event that did take place. In other words, it was real.
It took place but there is no evidence pointing to that fact. You did mention no evidence as a reason why there is no God right?


Quote:
Again, no evidence. Too many bad people in the world and nothing to stop unfair diseases especially being born with a disability. No god to stop any weather disasters either. Even churches aren't saved from them.

Not saying they all are like this but some of the worst people I have dealt with in my life were hard core bible thumpers and churchgoers.

I cannot see any god nor do I hear voices.

As I said the evidence is overwhelming.
I take it you are not familiar with Adam/Eve, the fallen world, etc etc?
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:06 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,252,501 times
Reputation: 1317
Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
Why yes you are correct in one sense, however you have to understand Pascal's Wager would have been no wager at all if he used Bobism as no one would have taken him seriously.
Which is why it is wrong to take his wager seriously. If you are trying to argue that a statistical argument for God fails because of ridiculous claims, I agree. But the only reason you dismiss Bobism is because you don't already believe in it. Pascal's Wager is only persuasive to those who already believe, as evidenced by your refusal to convert.


Quote:
Originally Posted by medellinheel View Post
So the wager you proposed is not comparable to the one Pascal proposed.
On the contrary, it is the exact same argument. The difference is that you want evidence for Bobism, but want to let your preferred belief off the hook. Face it, Pascal's wager is flawed, and unconvincing, and frankly, a poor basis for belief. I submit as proof of this the fact that you keep trying to waffle out of accepting its mathematical conclusions.

I rest my case.

-NoCapo
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