U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-25-2014, 10:50 PM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,486,575 times
Reputation: 4657

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Pascal's Wager doesn't work for various reasons.

Christians have as much to loose as Atheists if another religion is true, atheists could be the ones who receive rewards for atheism and religious people punished for/by their religion... There are infinite possibilities.
What did Pascal say about the logic of existence of God and belief?

Who is giving the rewards and punishment after death ... an imaginary non-God?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-25-2014, 10:53 PM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,486,575 times
Reputation: 4657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Yes, but even if a god exists, that doesn't imply there is any downside to not believing in him. Perhaps it's a god that appreciates the skeptical mind and will doubly reward any non-believer.

Edit: Oops. Luminous beat me to it. Well played sir.
If God exists, the only downside is not believing. Non-believers, by definition, are not rewarded for not believing. They are in fact cast into some sort of hellish afterlife where everything hurts. In some religions, it's better to be reborn as a bug.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2014, 11:04 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,741,265 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
It is amazing how often Pascal's wager comes out. I have to ask- is that why you believe? Because you are afraid of being screwed over by an angry God if you don't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
I was raised by a Christian mother and a Buddhist father. I believe something, but not only because it is in my best interests.
You would be deluded to think that believing in Gods or one only couldn't end up wasting your life, opportunities, increasing your negative karma, sending you to hells, causing psycholical problems through Externalization, or any of the infinite negative possibilities. Gods that work on thought crimes and send nonbelievers to hell shouldn't be worshiped anyway. That's like saying we should support Allah, Vishnu, and Jesus just in case they hate Deist blasphemy. Lol
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2014, 11:07 PM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,486,575 times
Reputation: 4657
"Christians have as much to loose as Atheists if another religion is true"

I'm confused. Is the idea that atheists don't believe in a Christian God, but they might believe in another God? If that's true, wouldn't that mean that atheism is nothing more than anti-Christian belief of God?

I understood atheism as understanding the concept of God, and denying that God exists. Agnostic is denying that there is a concept of God - as in, there is no such thing. Denying the existence of God has nothing to do with someone's preferred beliefs. Can't there be an atheist Muslim ... as in a Muslim that understands religion, but who decides that God doesn't exist? ... views the antiquated belief system as absurd?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2014, 11:16 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,741,265 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
What did Pascal say about the logic of existence of God and belief?
That the binary (although a false dichotomy) math would mean it's equal if God doesn't exist and bad for atheists, yet good for Christians, if God does; safer to just go along being an "I believe because I believe" Christian.
Quote:
Who is giving the rewards and punishment after death ... an imaginary non-God?
Any God that chooses to, or Karma that simply does it. The rewards and punishments within life would be clear and scientifically testable. Religion causes a lot of Psychosis and God-believes cause bad Externalization.

Don't forget there would be Matrix Robots that love atheism, or future resurrectors that only resurrect those who were good w/o religion or theist believes.

The same would apply for choosing pure Agnosticism.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2014, 11:17 PM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,486,575 times
Reputation: 4657
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
You would be deluded to think that believing in Gods or one only couldn't end up wasting your life, opportunities, increasing your negative karma, sending you to hells, causing psycholical problems through Externalization, or any of the infinite negative possibilities. Gods that work on thought crimes and send nonbelievers to hell shouldn't be worshiped anyway. That's like saying we should support Allah, Vishnu, and Jesus just in case they hate Deist blasphemy. Lol
I suppose the four options were mixed up with consequence ... but that's not really what I meant. What I meant is that if you had to hedge your bets so you could forget about it - think about other more interesting things - it's best to just accept that God might exist because if God exists, it's best to have that belief. If God does exist and you deny existence, it's hellish. If God doesn't exist, belief/disbelief makes no difference ... so given all the possibilities, what is the best choice?

I don't think a belief in God has anything to do with any particular religion. A belief in God is the one thing that all religions have in common. Without that belief, it's not a religion. Religion is not about buying into a story book about Vishnu and Allah.

Why is the question about the existence of God mixed up with individual beliefs? What is the relationship?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-25-2014, 11:19 PM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,486,575 times
Reputation: 4657
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
That the binary (although a false dichotomy) math would mean it's 75% safer to just go along being an "I believe because I believe" Christian.

Any God that chooses to, or Karma that simply does it. The rewards and punishments within life would be clear and scientifically testable. Religion causes a lot of Psychosis and God-believes cause bad Externalization.

Don't forget there would be Matrix Robots that love atheism, or future resurrectors that only resurrect those who were good w/o religion or theist believes.

The same would apply for choosing pure Agnosticism.
The existence of God has nothing to do with Christianity.

Math, Robots, Resurrections, Psychosis, Reward, Punishment, and Bad Externalization don't actually go together.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-26-2014, 05:33 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,250,630 times
Reputation: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
I suppose the four options were mixed up with consequence ... but that's not really what I meant. What I meant is that if you had to hedge your bets so you could forget about it - think about other more interesting things - it's best to just accept that God might exist because if God exists, it's best to have that belief. If God does exist and you deny existence, it's hellish. If God doesn't exist, belief/disbelief makes no difference ... so given all the possibilities, what is the best choice?

I don't think a belief in God has anything to do with any particular religion. A belief in God is the one thing that all religions have in common. Without that belief, it's not a religion. Religion is not about buying into a story book about Vishnu and Allah.

Why is the question about the existence of God mixed up with individual beliefs? What is the relationship?
The reason it is mixed up with individual beliefs is that those are what matter. Each individual conception of god would deal with unbelief differently. For example, if God exists and is the one I was taught about as a child (Southern Baptist) would send you to hell along with me becasue mere belief is not enough. The bible explicitly says this in James, "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" Likewise following Allah, being a good Hindu, sitting under the Bodhi tree seeking enlightenment, none of these things would get you into heaven if the Baptist version of god is true.

On the other hand if God were to happen to be a deist type god, he might be very pleased with an Atheist's reliance on logic and reason, and might be utterly repulsed by taking things on faith.

No one can make all concepts of God equally happy, especially since so many are mutually exclusive. Pascals wager is a very popular but overly simplistic argument that really does not work. And to top it off, many god concepts would be not accept hedging your bets as a valid motivation, and send you off to punishment/reincarnation/whatever you get for being bad.

-NoCapo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-26-2014, 05:43 AM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,729,081 times
Reputation: 1770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
If God exists, the only downside is not believing. Non-believers, by definition, are not rewarded for not believing. They are in fact cast into some sort of hellish afterlife where everything hurts. In some religions, it's better to be reborn as a bug.
No, non-believers, by definition, don't believe in a god. That is all. There's nothing in that definition that prevents them for being rewarded for not believing. And since your pascal's wager doesn't indicate which sort of god exists, we have no way of knowing whether that god would reward believers or non-believers, or if he even makes a distinction between the two.

It's pretty simple, really.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-26-2014, 05:51 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,938,252 times
Reputation: 1804
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
It is amazing how often Pascal's wager comes out. I have to ask- is that why you believe? Because you are afraid of being screwed over by an angry God if you don't?
And how little a god must you believe in to think you can trick it into rewarding you for pretending to believe like this?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top