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Old 05-27-2014, 12:57 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,285,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
There WILL be a point in your life when YOU WILL ASK FOR HELP from someone. So it wouldn't hurt to put your ego aside for a short moment and ASK God to guide you in this journey of life.
Your analogy sucks because of two things. First in the examples you give you do not ASK for help from such people. You EMPLOY them and PAY them to do so. Second: Those people exist. There is no reason to think your god does. So seeking help from someone who exists is not analogous to seeking help from your imaginary friend.
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Old 05-27-2014, 02:08 AM
 
Location: the Orion Spur
91 posts, read 85,616 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
So this is where it ends.
You don't want it, then you don't want. There is no compulsion. God is not gonna raise taxes on you for not believing in his existence.

If God doesn't compel me to believe, as you say above, why is it that Christians feel so driven to compel me, along with every other non-believer?

Why is it not good enough for Christians to simply stay in their homes and believe? Why the need to spread the good news? You say God's not compelling anyone.

I believe that deep down every Christian knows that Christianity is hokey, simply contrived. There are far too many holes and inconsistencies in the Bible, in addition to the outright contradictions and outrageous cruelty. So, Christians feel this human drive to compel as many others to believe so that they won't feel like the only foolish practitioner, not to mention the financial need from corporate.

And please let me steal your thunder by saying that the real motivation is not to save my poor soul from eternal damnation. Christians have shown they lack the compassion they so enjoy flaunting. If Christians actually practiced the Christianity laid down in the gospels, and then kept it to themselves, leading wholesome, peaceful lives, I might actually respect them. The truth is, however, Christians generally practice hypocrisy and can't help but feel compelled to share the hypocrisy. This thread is exhibit number one.

Last edited by Mantronix4204; 05-27-2014 at 02:23 AM..
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Old 05-27-2014, 05:36 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,252,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
So this is where it ends.
You don't want it, then you don't want. There is no compulsion. God is not gonna raise taxes on you for not believing in his existence.
So no Jahannam for unbelievers? Good to know you don't believe that.


-NoCapo
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Old 05-28-2014, 10:38 PM
 
446 posts, read 399,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
So no Jahannam for unbelievers? Good to know you don't believe that.


-NoCapo
What I believe in, shouldn't matter to you anymore. It's YOU who don't believe in God so you don't have to worry about "Jahannam".
Plus, I am NOT the one who decides who goes where. It's more of one-selves choice whether he wants to go hell or paradise - OR - don't believe in either and takes his chance as per Pascal's Wager.
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Old 05-28-2014, 11:47 PM
 
446 posts, read 399,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204 View Post
If God doesn't compel me to believe,

When you are thirsty, the water comes to you or you go to water? You will need some minimum amount of effort to get that water down your throat IF you are thirsty and you want to drink water. For a minimum, you have to open your mouth and let someone pour in the water.

In case of God, you will also need to do some minimum effort IF you feel the need of God in your life. And that minimum effort is as simple as opening the mouth for water - you will sincerely need to ask God, "Oh God, guide me to the right path if you exist". There is nothing to lose in doing so but again, that's valid only if you feel the need of God - otherwise, as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Quote:


as you say above, why is it that Christians feel so driven to compel me, along with every other non-believer?
There is no compulsion in religion. Quran 2:256

Those who try to compel you are deceiving themselves. If I knock at your door every Sunday morning or start an intimidating conversation every time I see you, and one day you accept my faith just to get rid of me, do you think you become a believer? If I put a gun to your head and ask you to stop believing in God, and to save your life, you agree to do so. Do you think you will really become a non believer? I will be a fool to think so. Faith lives in the heart - nobody can steal it and nobody can cram it.

Again, there is NO compulsion in religion.

Yes, folks can gently deliver a message to you about God but that's it! In their homes, yes they can pray to God to guide you but they cannot visit back to you over and over and over again and try to shove it down your throat. It doesn't work that way. This is absolutely wrong. Their job should be over after delivering the message, it's your call to ponder upon it and see if there is a need of God in your life. No compulsion



Quote:

I believe that deep down every Christian knows that Christianity is hokey, simply contrived. There are far too many holes and inconsistencies in the Bible, in addition to the outright contradictions and outrageous cruelty. So, Christians feel this human drive to compel as many others to believe so that they won't feel like the only foolish practitioner, not to mention the financial need from corporate.
I respect their faith but I am not a Christian so I can't comment very well on this one.


Quote:
And please let me steal your thunder by saying that the real motivation is not to save my poor soul from eternal damnation. Christians have shown they lack the compassion they so enjoy flaunting. If Christians actually practiced the Christianity laid down in the gospels, and then kept it to themselves, leading wholesome, peaceful lives, I might actually respect them. The truth is, however, Christians generally practice hypocrisy and can't help but feel compelled to share the hypocrisy. This thread is exhibit number one.
You can perhaps say this not only about the followers of all major religions but also many other non-religious groups. It's wise to judge a religion NOT by it's followers but by it's book.
And this can be applied to almost all group of people. Read the beautiful American Constitution, would it be fair if I dismiss the entire American life by bringing a few examples of bad apples?

In matter of faith, it's only between you and God. What some Christians, or some Muslims, or some Jews do that you may disagree with shouldn't interfere with your faith, but yes, you do have a right and freedom to judge each religion by it's book.

And also, there are many Christians/Muslims/Jews etc who have done many good things for humanity on large scale, so there are good and bad in every group.

But at the end of the day, it all boils down to the question that only you can honestly answer - Do you feel the need of divine guidance in your life? If no, then there is no compulsion. If yes, ask God to guide you and do your search to find the truth by analyzing the holy book that each religion presents to see which one speaks to you.
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Old 05-28-2014, 11:57 PM
 
446 posts, read 399,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Your analogy sucks because of two things. First in the examples you give you do not ASK for help from such people. You EMPLOY them and PAY them to do so. Second: Those people exist. There is no reason to think your god does. So seeking help from someone who exists is not analogous to seeking help from your imaginary friend.
Again, if everyone sees God then obviously everyone will believe in God (there wont be a choice left), so where is the test of faith then?

Faith is to recognize God by his signs without seeing him. Whether you wan't to ponder upon his signs and believe in him or you don't, that's your choice.
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Old 05-29-2014, 05:29 AM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,673,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
What I believe in, shouldn't matter to you anymore. It's YOU who don't believe in God so you don't have to worry about "Jahannam".
Plus, I am NOT the one who decides who goes where. It's more of one-selves choice whether he wants to go hell or paradise - OR - don't believe in either and takes his chance as per Pascal's Wager.
Let me give it to you plain. From my pov your personal (religious sect's) interperation of god (god of pascal's wager)...is an evil god. As Christopher Hitchen put it your interpertation of god is a kim jong il (now kim jong un) of a spiritual north Korea.
Why would I want to be with a god like that? If your interpertation of god exists....why wouldn't I want to join Satan's army? From my pov Satan is Obviously a freedom fighter. Looking to over throw a despotic king .

So honestly if your version if god exist. And if the end days do come. Expect to see me on Satan's team. I'll be easy to spot. I'll be the guy with the Wallace sword screaming FREEDOM!!!!
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Old 05-29-2014, 06:40 AM
 
446 posts, read 399,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baystater View Post
Let me give it to you plain. From my pov your personal (religious sect's) interperation of god (god of pascal's wager)...is an evil god. As Christopher Hitchen put it your interpertation of god is a kim jong il (now kim jong un) of a spiritual north Korea.
Why would I want to be with a god like that? If your interpertation of god exists....why wouldn't I want to join Satan's army? From my pov Satan is Obviously a freedom fighter. Looking to over throw a despotic king .

So honestly if your version if god exist. And if the end days do come. Expect to see me on Satan's team. I'll be easy to spot. I'll be the guy with the Wallace sword screaming FREEDOM!!!!
OK. So what's the problem here?
That's what you want so that's the choice you make. You are already free to make this choice before even jumping on the band wagon of Satan's freedom fighters.
We ALL have a choice so you made yours.
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Old 05-29-2014, 06:45 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,252,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
What I believe in, shouldn't matter to you anymore. It's YOU who don't believe in God so you don't have to worry about "Jahannam".
Of course. Just as you are not concerned about being cast into hell becasue you did not accept Christ's sacrifice on the cross, I am not concerned about Jahannam. But you were the one implying I should be concerned about it, by bringing up Pascal's wager...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Plus, I am NOT the one who decides who goes where. It's more of one-selves choice whether he wants to go hell or paradise - OR - don't believe in either and takes his chance as per Pascal's Wager.
Wait, I thought you just said that since I didn't believe, I didn't have to worry about eternal punishment? If that is the case, why would Pascal's Wager even matter? If a god is not going to punish me for getting it wrong, then clearly the best option is to follow my reason and conscience, and ignore doctrine, dogma, and unsubstantiated belief.

Which, of course, is what I strive to do.

-NoCapo
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Old 05-29-2014, 06:47 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,252,936 times
Reputation: 1317
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
OK. So what's the problem here?
That's what you want so that's the choice you make. You are already free to make this choice before even jumping on the band wagon of Satan's freedom fighters.
We ALL have a choice so you made yours.
But if there is a divine punishment for making the wrong choice, you cannot argue that the choice is free of coercion. If I hold a gun to your head and ask for your wallet, the fact that you can refuse and die does not mean you were not coerced...

If the choice is truly free, there is not punishment for making the wrong choice.

-NoCapo
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