U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 05-29-2014, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,672,645 times
Reputation: 1698

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
But if there is a divine punishment for making the wrong choice, you cannot argue that the choice is free of coercion. If I hold a gun to your head and ask for your wallet, the fact that you can refuse and die does not mean you were not coerced...

If the choice is truly free, there is not punishment for making the wrong choice.

-NoCapo
Yes you are correct that you don't have "real" freedom of choice with ll0OoO0ll interpretation of god. But from what I understand of folks like these is that in their belief systems, you still have a choice (overly simplistic) to make no matter what.

Do you choose god? Or so you choose hell?

I think I made myself clear that if this type of God did exist. This god is clearly evil (in the most broad/simplistic definition). I think this point is very important to point out to all people that use Pascal's wager as a reason to choose (believing in /worshipping) god....and more overly to believe in their specific interpretation of god.

Really. From my pov. People that put forth Pascal's Wager are promoting evil. And maybe...perhaps, we as a world society should start considering and more importantly vocalizing the fact that these folks that are pushing the "wager", evil at their spiritual core. Or at least considered severely corrupted in their spiritual mindset.

Last edited by baystater; 05-29-2014 at 09:28 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-29-2014, 09:25 AM
 
446 posts, read 399,633 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Of course. Just as you are not concerned about being cast into hell becasue you did not accept Christ's sacrifice on the cross, I am not concerned about Jahannam. But you were the one implying I should be concerned about it, by bringing up Pascal's wager...



Wait, I thought you just said that since I didn't believe, I didn't have to worry about eternal punishment? If that is the case, why would Pascal's Wager even matter? If a god is not going to punish me for getting it wrong, then clearly the best option is to follow my reason and conscience, and ignore doctrine, dogma, and unsubstantiated belief.

Which, of course, is what I strive to do.

-NoCapo
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
But if there is a divine punishment for making the wrong choice, you cannot argue that the choice is free of coercion. If I hold a gun to your head and ask for your wallet, the fact that you can refuse and die does not mean you were not coerced...

If the choice is truly free, there is not punishment for making the wrong choice.

-NoCapo
I think we are sorta going in circles but its still an interesting discussion.
The argument is, if you don't believe in the existence of God then you should not worry about hell. The Pascal Wager was presented to you just to let you know that "hey, don't be caught by surprise". And that's it! There is no compulsion on you. You are free to make the choice.

Funny thing is, atheist almost always associate God as a cruel being who has prepared hell for non-believers but hardly ever atheists are open to the idea of doing good and reach paradise that is also created by God to reward those who at least TRIED to live their life under God's guidance.

Again, I don't make the call. God can throw all believers in hell and he can reward all atheists with paradise because he is God and he is not answerable or dependent to anything. However, from my holy book there is a guidance for me and I get the idea that its a smarter move to submit to God and try to follow the guidance to be the winner at the end.
And also, If I live by God's guidance, and at the end if I find that God does not exist, I would have still lived a very happy and good life by taking care of myself, my family, my neigubor, my community, and my country. God guides me to do all those good things and also asks me to avoid acts like killing stealing, lying, cheating, deceiving, doing drugs, alcohol etc because these things are not good for myself and for the society I am living in. God also tells me that if you make mistakes, repent with honesty and I will forgive you as many times as you want. All God wants me to do is AT LEAST TRY to live my life under his guidance.
So for me, it's a safer bet to follow God and live a good content life.
I just don't wanna be on the otherside of the line in the end

Last edited by ll0OoO0ll; 05-29-2014 at 09:46 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2014, 09:49 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,252,114 times
Reputation: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
I think we are sorta going in circles but its still an interesting discussion.
The argument is, if you don't believe in the existence of God then you should not worry about hell. The Pascal Wager was presented to you just to let you know that "hey, don't be caught by surprise". And that's it! There is no compulsion on you. You are free to make the choice.
I think you are missing the entire point of Pascal's wager. It is a (very flawed) statistical analysis designed to present god-belief as the rational choice. By its very nature it is designed to be presented to unbelievers, as it attempts to make the case that, given the severity of hell, it is rational to believe in order to avoid it even if the probability of hell is vanishingly small.

If you are interested, we can talk about exactly why Pascal's wager is flawed, but the summary is that it assumes belief is an act of will and it assumes only two options, believe or not, when there is a near infinite spectrum of religious belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Funny thing is, atheist almost always associate God as a cruel being who has prepared hell for non-believers but hardly ever atheists are open to the idea of doing good and reach paradise that is also created by God to reward those who at least TRIED to live their life under God's guidance.
Not to Godwin the thread, but this is sort of like complaining that people only remember Hitler for the holocaust, and not for revolutionizing the German transit system... Even if there is a heaven for god's buddies, the idea that he would reward any amount of evil that can be accomplished in a human lifetime with eternal suffering kind of pushes the moral balance over to evil, and pushed it fairly hard. This is particularly true if you are using Pascal's logic that Hell is so horrible that the cost of hell times the expectation of hell overwhelms any other consideration...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Again, I don't make the call. God can throw all believers in hell and he can reward all atheists with paradise because he is God and he is not answerable or dependent to anything. However, from my holy book there is a guidance for me and I get the idea that its a smarter move to submit to God and try to follow the guidance to be the winner at the end.
And also, If I live by God's guidance, and at the end if I find that God does not exist, I would have still lived a very happy and good life by taking care of myself, my family, my neigubor, my community, and my country.
Except if the Christians are right... You will be right next to me in hell for rejecting the sacrifice of Christ. All I am doing is taking your logic one step further. Regardless of a God's existence, I am doing my best to live a very happy and good life by taking care of myself, my family, my neighbor, my community, and my country. I don't need a religion to explain to me how to do this, nor do I need the threat of hell or even simply god's displeasure to motivate me to do it. If there is a god who would choose to consign me to eternal torment for that, then I wouldn't be able to worship it with a clear conscience anyway...

-NoCapo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2014, 01:09 PM
 
Location: the Orion Spur
91 posts, read 85,579 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
When you are thirsty, the water comes to you or you go to water? You will need some minimum amount of effort to get that water down your throat IF you are thirsty and you want to drink water. For a minimum, you have to open your mouth and let someone pour in the water.

In case of God, you will also need to do some minimum effort IF you feel the need of God in your life. And that minimum effort is as simple as opening the mouth for water - you will sincerely need to ask God, "Oh God, guide me to the right path if you exist". There is nothing to lose in doing so but again, that's valid only if you feel the need of God - otherwise, as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

There is no compulsion in religion. Quran 2:256

Those who try to compel you are deceiving themselves. If I knock at your door every Sunday morning or start an intimidating conversation every time I see you, and one day you accept my faith just to get rid of me, do you think you become a believer? If I put a gun to your head and ask you to stop believing in God, and to save your life, you agree to do so. Do you think you will really become a non believer? I will be a fool to think so. Faith lives in the heart - nobody can steal it and nobody can cram it.

Again, there is NO compulsion in religion.

Yes, folks can gently deliver a message to you about God but that's it! In their homes, yes they can pray to God to guide you but they cannot visit back to you over and over and over again and try to shove it down your throat. It doesn't work that way. This is absolutely wrong. Their job should be over after delivering the message, it's your call to ponder upon it and see if there is a need of God in your life. No compulsion

I respect their faith but I am not a Christian so I can't comment very well on this one.

You can perhaps say this not only about the followers of all major religions but also many other non-religious groups. It's wise to judge a religion NOT by it's followers but by it's book.
And this can be applied to almost all group of people. Read the beautiful American Constitution, would it be fair if I dismiss the entire American life by bringing a few examples of bad apples?

In matter of faith, it's only between you and God. What some Christians, or some Muslims, or some Jews do that you may disagree with shouldn't interfere with your faith, but yes, you do have a right and freedom to judge each religion by it's book.

And also, there are many Christians/Muslims/Jews etc who have done many good things for humanity on large scale, so there are good and bad in every group.

But at the end of the day, it all boils down to the question that only you can honestly answer - Do you feel the need of divine guidance in your life? If no, then there is no compulsion. If yes, ask God to guide you and do your search to find the truth by analyzing the holy book that each religion presents to see which one speaks to you.

Based on your post, I assume you practice Islam. I apologize for assuming you were Christian.

Regarding Islam, what I find stunning, truly unbelievable, which furthers my belief that both Christianity and Islam are contrived by humans is that God had to have known and therefore intended for Christians and Muslims to fight and kill each other in His name.

But first, you say that God doesn't compel me to believe. I sense you may be trying to trick me because the Quran is quite clear:

"As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers." Quran 3:56

How about this: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" Quran 8:12

And: "O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination." Quran 9:73, 66:9

Yikes! So... God isn't compelling me, but it seems clear that I'm also not free to walk away unpunished.

But what I find truly ridiculous and cruel about God is that according to Islam, the Arch-Angel Gabriel revealed the Quran to Muhammad in a cave near Mecca. This angel Gabriel is the same angel found in Christianity and Judaism. Thus, the three religions share the same God and the same set of deities.

To me, it necessarily follows that God intended that Christianity and Islam be two separate and warring religions. God knew these two religions would divide people, creating religious zealots on both sides who would inevitably want to kill the other for being a non-believer. This is God's plan.

The Quran is clear: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture (Bible) - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled." Quran 9:29

Remember, these words were spoken by Gabriel to Muhammad. Gabriel works for God.

Here's the motivation for Muslims to fight non-believers: "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." Quran 9:20

And I spared you the verses in the Quran concerning Muslims who believe yet fail to go forth and fight for Allah. You may fall in that group, and I wish you no harm.

And I'll also spare you the terrible verses of the Hadiths. Just for a taste, though: "Allah's Apostle said, 'You will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'" Bukhari 52:177.

Could this be any clearer: "The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, 'Kill any Jew who falls under your power.'" al-Tabari 7:97

From my point of view, it's all nonsense, unless you admit that this is precisely God's plan, exactly what God intended. That is, one God created at least two similar but very different religions, which include commandments to seek out and kill non-believers. What kind of entity sets up multiple religions in His name and then makes them fight and kill one another? Wiggle all you want, but if you are a true believer, this is what you must believe.

Last edited by Mantronix4204; 05-29-2014 at 01:55 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2014, 01:40 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,283,771 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Again, if everyone sees God then obviously everyone will believe in God (there wont be a choice left), so where is the test of faith then?
That is more cop out stuff however. All you are essentially doing is dodging the fact you can not substantiate your claim there is a god, by making up reasons for why you should not have to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Faith is to recognize God by his signs without seeing him. Whether you wan't to ponder upon his signs and believe in him or you don't, that's your choice.
Belief for you might be a choice. It is not for me. I can only believe things if given sound arguments, evidence, data or reasoning upon which to do so.

Given you have not just provided very little.... but absolutely NO.... arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to suggest there is a god.... I can not simply "choose" to believe there is one.

One wonders how far the lability of your credulity stretches however. Are you capable of, for example, holding an entirely empty box and simply "choose" to believe it is full of cash?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2014, 05:30 AM
 
Location: the Orion Spur
91 posts, read 85,579 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Again, if everyone sees God then obviously everyone will believe in God (there wont be a choice left), so where is the test of faith then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
That is more cop out stuff however. All you are essentially doing is dodging the fact you can not substantiate your claim there is a god, by making up reasons for why you should not have to.
I agree with Nozzferrahhtoo. Plus, the above claim doesn't make much sense. I get it, I think. But what's the point of saying it?

This thread has got me wondering: why do religious people care so much that Atheists don't believe? What it is that generates the outrage? Is it simply because an Atheist asks for more proof than an old, dusty book along with the say-so of 2 billion other believers?

Or, is it because the Atheist Inquisition tortured and murdered thousands of Christians? Is it because Atheists murdered at least 50,000 women for being witches? Is it because of the Atheist Crusades? Is it because Atheists protest military funerals, chanting and holding signs that read, "God hates ****"? Is it because Atheists are prone to be suicide bombers and fly planes into buildings?

I haven't dwelled on this question much before, but now I want to know.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2014, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,672,645 times
Reputation: 1698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204 View Post
I agree with Nozzferrahhtoo. Plus, the above claim doesn't make much sense. I get it, I think. But what's the point of saying it?

This thread has got me wondering: why do religious people care so much that Atheists don't believe? What it is that generates the outrage? Is it simply because an Atheist asks for more proof than an old, dusty book along with the say-so of 2 billion other believers?

Or, is it because the Atheist Inquisition tortured and murdered thousands of Christians? Is it because Atheists murdered at least 50,000 women for being witches? Is it because of the Atheist Crusades? Is it because Atheists protest military funerals, chanting and holding signs that read, "God hates ****"? Is it because Atheists are prone to be suicide bombers and fly planes into buildings?

I haven't dwelled on this question much before, but now I want to know.
Oh no.



Ohhhhhhhhhhh no.



Here comes the THREADPOCALYPSE!!!!!!!!!!!

Mantronix4204 I get you. I understand what your saying. But...I believe you just opened the door for the usual response to a post like yours. Which is: Atheism was the cause of deaths of millions upon millions of people during the 20th century. The usually suspects will rear their heads. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao. Then we have to spend the next 25 posts arguing why atheism was not the prime mover in most of the deaths involved in the 20 century. In fact it could get worse. The thread could start branching off in a subcategory of whether Hitler was a believer in god or not. I've seen that happen before.

Oh boy.

Well we are on the A & A board...so, maybe it won't happen. But be prepared. It just may.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2014, 07:59 AM
 
Location: the Orion Spur
91 posts, read 85,579 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by baystater View Post
Oh no.



Ohhhhhhhhhhh no.



Here comes the THREADPOCALYPSE!!!!!!!!!!!

Mantronix4204 I get you. I understand what your saying. But...I believe you just opened the door for the usual response to a post like yours. Which is: Atheism was the cause of deaths of millions upon millions of people during the 20th century. The usually suspects will rear their heads. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao. Then we have to spend the next 25 posts arguing why atheism was not the prime mover in most of the deaths involved in the 20 century. In fact it could get worse. The thread could start branching off in a subcategory of whether Hitler was a believer in god or not. I've seen that happen before.

Oh boy.

Well we are on the A & A board...so, maybe it won't happen. But be prepared. It just may.

You're right. I didn't think it through. I'm glad you said something. Thank you. It shows my lack of experience in the Religion forum.

Great pics, btw! That was awesome.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-30-2014, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,672,645 times
Reputation: 1698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204 View Post
You're right. I didn't think it through. I'm glad you said something. Thank you. It shows my lack of experience in the Religion forum.

Great pics, btw! That was awesome.


Eh. You live you learn. We'll handle it as I comes.

Oh and.......

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-01-2014, 03:35 PM
 
446 posts, read 399,633 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204 View Post
Based on your post, I assume you practice Islam. I apologize for assuming you were Christian.

Regarding Islam, what I find stunning, truly unbelievable, which furthers my belief that both Christianity and Islam are contrived by humans is that God had to have known and therefore intended for Christians and Muslims to fight and kill each other in His name.

But first, you say that God doesn't compel me to believe. I sense you may be trying to trick me because the Quran is quite clear:

"As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers." Quran 3:56

How about this: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" Quran 8:12

And: "O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination." Quran 9:73, 66:9

Yikes! So... God isn't compelling me, but it seems clear that I'm also not free to walk away unpunished.

But what I find truly ridiculous and cruel about God is that according to Islam, the Arch-Angel Gabriel revealed the Quran to Muhammad in a cave near Mecca. This angel Gabriel is the same angel found in Christianity and Judaism. Thus, the three religions share the same God and the same set of deities.

To me, it necessarily follows that God intended that Christianity and Islam be two separate and warring religions. God knew these two religions would divide people, creating religious zealots on both sides who would inevitably want to kill the other for being a non-believer. This is God's plan.

The Quran is clear: "Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture (Bible) - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled." Quran 9:29

Remember, these words were spoken by Gabriel to Muhammad. Gabriel works for God.

Here's the motivation for Muslims to fight non-believers: "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." Quran 9:20

And I spared you the verses in the Quran concerning Muslims who believe yet fail to go forth and fight for Allah. You may fall in that group, and I wish you no harm.

And I'll also spare you the terrible verses of the Hadiths. Just for a taste, though: "Allah's Apostle said, 'You will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'" Bukhari 52:177.

Could this be any clearer: "The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, 'Kill any Jew who falls under your power.'" al-Tabari 7:97

From my point of view, it's all nonsense, unless you admit that this is precisely God's plan, exactly what God intended. That is, one God created at least two similar but very different religions, which include commandments to seek out and kill non-believers. What kind of entity sets up multiple religions in His name and then makes them fight and kill one another? Wiggle all you want, but if you are a true believer, this is what you must believe.



That's what? 5 verses? out of SIX THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED FORTY SIX.
What about rest of the SIX THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED FORTY ONE verses? Have you studied, read and ponder upon them yet?

No sir, doing a google and nit picking on chopped off Quranic verses and take them out of context from some websites won't do. It's like trying to learn Physics from a professor of Biology.

Just imagine the shallowness of your understanding of these 5 Quranic Verses - If you think these verses were meant as you think they do, then you would not have had a single non-Muslim living in an Islamic country. But guess what? there are 100 and millions of NON-MUSLIMS who live very peacefully in Islamic countries among Muslims.
Had the Quranic verses you posted above meant to kill non-believers or non-muslims then you would not have Jews living in Turkey, you would have not 3 Million Christians living in Pakistan, you would have not Hindus living in Malaysia, you have not agnostic and atheist living Indonesia and so on.


If you really wanna ponder the true message of Quran then you will need study the entire Quran from A to Z from an authentic translation to understand it's message and it's notion. AND THEN come back and talk to me about those 5 verses that you don't understand.
A mere diluted translation into English, perhaps by someone who is not a Muslim, won't do. At least read the background and situation in which the verses were revealed to know the circumstances. Every verse in Quran has a background - read that when a mere translation is presented to you, and don't fall for chopped off meaning and verses. It will require a little effort to pierce thru the fog and reach to the core.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top