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Old 06-02-2014, 07:25 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,252,936 times
Reputation: 1317

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
We have a difference of opinion here and I think you are now changing your stance.

The original argument was weather God exists or not. Then we said, if God exists then which religion to follow?
I think here you make a fundamental, but very common mistake. You cannot determine if God exists without defining what God you are talking about. After all, the plausibility of a Deist god is orders of magnitude more plausible than an Abrahamic God. No, you have to examine each God concept on its own merits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
And the notion of my reply was simple, you use your logic, knowledge, common sense to judge each religion BY IT'S BOOK to make the best possible decision which YOU think makes the most sense to you. If Christians believe "you are in or you are out", then you read their book, if Muslims claim ABCD, then you judge their religion by THEIR BOOK, and so do you do with Judaism and Hinduism and other isms out there. It's not fair to judge the religion without studying it's scriptures and see how fair is the call?
Sure, but if a holy book is incompatible with the evidence around us, it can be crossed off the list. Anything that demands a literal interpretation of Genesis, or a similar creation myth is off the table. Likewise, I have a fundamental issue with the very definition of god as transcending reality or being in some way supernatural. There is no evidence to back such a claim. I do not have to learn Arabic, or Hebrew, or Sanskrit and devote my life to the study of a holy book to decide if it has merit. I do try to give each religion a fair shake, but ultimately only a few forms of Buddhism or a highly figurative ( i.e. entirely symbolic) interpretation of most other religions is even close to plausible. Of those, they appear to me to be materialistic naturalism wrapped in mumbo jumbo, so I ditch the toppings and stick with the meat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
The definition of evidence differs from person to person. What could be evidence for you, may not be a joke for others; however, if you think an evidence will be some experiment in a lab or along the lines of "Seeing is believing" then it's not gonna happen in this life. You are invited to ponder upon the signs of God, and you can you use logic and your common sense to believe that there is somebody out there who has created it all. And this is EXACTLY what's called "Faith". You don't see it with your eyes but from the signs you believe in something.
Exactly! Empirical, testable evidence, of the kind we require for every other area of our lives is not available, and generally believers take this as a point of pride that they don't need it. I have spent plenty of time chasing fantasies that existed only in my own head, I'm quite frankly not interested in a religion that can't muster as much empirical evidence as, say, gravity or Newtonian Mechanics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
20 years is nothing. you still have time. I invite you to study Quran, read an authentic Quranic translation and see if talks to you, see if it answers your questions, see if it makes sense to you.
Sure, if there is a God, he can change my mind. But he'll have to do it for me, because I am not participating in my own brainwashing a second time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
There is nothing to lose.
This is where I disagree. I lost a significant portion of my childhood and young adult life to chasing a God that apparently isn't there. The negative effects of that period of my life, and of my religious upbringing are still with me. The amount of energy I spent in useless religious pursuit that I could have spent in being happy, in pursuing knowledge, friendship and real companionship saddens me. One of the worst things about it is that of the relationships I worked so hard to cultivate, the friendships I built, the only ones that survived intact are the ones with non- believers or nominally religious people. Leaving my faith did not change who I was, and yet it showed me how shallow and meaningless those relationships were. They were all conditional on toeing a doctrinal line. I have no interest in repeating the experience, and will not do so of my own volition. I have too much to lose to to attempt the self indoctrination that would be required.

-NoCapo
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:15 PM
 
Location: the Orion Spur
91 posts, read 85,616 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post


That's what? 5 verses? out of SIX THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED FORTY SIX.
What about rest of the SIX THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED FORTY ONE verses? Have you studied, read and ponder upon them yet?

No sir, doing a google and nit picking on chopped off Quranic verses and take them out of context from some websites won't do. It's like trying to learn Physics from a professor of Biology.

Just imagine the shallowness of your understanding of these 5 Quranic Verses - If you think these verses were meant as you think they do, then you would not have had a single non-Muslim living in an Islamic country. But guess what? there are 100 and millions of NON-MUSLIMS who live very peacefully in Islamic countries among Muslims.
Had the Quranic verses you posted above meant to kill non-believers or non-muslims then you would not have Jews living in Turkey, you would have not 3 Million Christians living in Pakistan, you would have not Hindus living in Malaysia, you have not agnostic and atheist living Indonesia and so on.

If you really wanna ponder the true message of Quran then you will need study the entire Quran from A to Z from an authentic translation to understand it's message and it's notion. AND THEN come back and talk to me about those 5 verses that you don't understand.
A mere diluted translation into English, perhaps by someone who is not a Muslim, won't do. At least read the background and situation in which the verses were revealed to know the circumstances. Every verse in Quran has a background - read that when a mere translation is presented to you, and don't fall for chopped off meaning and verses. It will require a little effort to pierce thru the fog and reach to the core.
I appreciate your point, but please keep in mind that you and I had been discussing the idea that God doesn't compel people to believe. I started my response by making the point that the Quran instructs that I'll still be punished harshly for my disbelief. In other words, you may say that I'm not compelled to believe, but, in truth, if I reject Islam the Quran is clear that I will be punished. I'm actually not free to simply walk away, which I don't appreciate.

As just one example among many, many I can find, here's what Sheik Taj Din al-Hilaly, former Mufti of Australia and Imam of the Lakemba Mosque, said in a sermon at the Lakemba Mosque October 2006: "Those atheists, people of the book [Christians and Jews], where will they end up? ... In hell and not part-time, for eternity. They are the worst in God’s creation."

| The Australian

Next, I appreciate your sentiment regarding the Quran and your dismissing its call for violence. The Quran is a confusing book in that it literally prescribes two opposing ideas about the same subject. In the context you and I are discussing, the Quran will say in one verse to go kill the infidels, and yet in another verse say only use violence as a defense. The Quran instructs Muslims to be polite in their attempts to convert non-Muslims by using "beautiful preaching," yet then again it says to chop off the heads of the non-believers.

I suggest to you that many of the most vocal Islamic leaders tend to stir Muslims into a frenzy by using these verses that espouse violence. That is, the verses you criticize me for cherry-picking are precisely the verses Islamic leaders use to achieve their religious goals, which is why I included the additional verses. Here's a site with many interesting quotes:
What Muslim leaders say about Islam.

As just one example: "Ali Gomaa, the grand mufti of Egypt, the highest Muslim religious authority in the world, supports murdering non-Muslims. In the daily Al Ahram (April 7, 2008), he said, 'Muslims must kill non-believers wherever they are unless they convert to Islam.'" His point seems pretty clear to me, and he's not alone in his beliefs.

I would challenge you to instead of criticizing me for cherry-picking verses from the Quran, to criticize the Islamic leaders and the jihadists who use the exact same verses to justify their killing. Pakistani Muslims: 'Killing an infidel is not a sin'

I'm not saying the Quran is nothing but violence. I'm not saying all Muslims are violent. But I am saying that the few verses in the Quran that do discuss violence are the ones certain Muslims embrace dearly. I caution you, however, that if you criticize these Islamic leaders, you can expect a ruling, calling for your death. I'm not embellishing or trying to be funny. Here again there are many examples concerning what happens to those who dare to criticize Islam, or for simply drawing a cartoon of Muhammad.

As for the Turks tolerating the Jews, I'm happy to hear it. Now, why don't you talk to Saudi Arabia, which until March 1, 2004, the official government website stated that Jews were forbidden from entering the country. Although the webpage was changed because of complaints, no one who admits to being Jewish on visa paperwork or who has an Israeli stamp on their passport is allowed into the country. It's difficult to have respect for countries and peoples who hold these prejudices. And please don't act like it's rare. It's not. And it's all because of Religion.

And not to get too far off point, but I have little respect for a religion whose diplomats won't even shake hands with the US Secretary of State simply because she's a woman. Really! I'm supposed to respect this? I'm supposed to want this? These beliefs will enhance my life? I'll end by saying that you may be an apologist and see Islam as nothing but peaceful, charming, and rosy. But what I see - as I see with Judaism and Christianity - is severe discrimination, lack of freedoms, outdated and backward social practices that are harmful and deadly, and a laundry list of hypocrisies. And after all that, you still have no evidence there's a god. I say, No thank you.

Last edited by Mantronix4204; 06-02-2014 at 08:44 PM..
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Detroit
983 posts, read 1,430,735 times
Reputation: 1065
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
And you absolutely have NO EVIDENCE, DATA, REASONING to proof that God does not exist, do you?
I also have no evidence that there is not a teacup orbiting the sun between Jupiter and Saturn
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,094,403 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
I lost a significant portion of my childhood and young adult life to chasing a God that apparently isn't there. The negative effects of that period of my life, and of my religious upbringing are still with me. The amount of energy I spent in useless religious pursuit that I could have spent in being happy, in pursuing knowledge, friendship and real companionship saddens me. One of the worst things about it is that of the relationships I worked so hard to cultivate, the friendships I built, the only ones that survived intact are the ones with non- believers or nominally religious people. Leaving my faith did not change who I was, and yet it showed me how shallow and meaningless those relationships were. They were all conditional on toeing a doctrinal line. I have no interest in repeating the experience, and will not do so of my own volition. I have too much to lose to to attempt the self indoctrination that would be required.
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Old 06-03-2014, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh
1,650 posts, read 3,011,675 times
Reputation: 2122
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
If you are out there to judge and prove the existence of God based on scientific knowledge then science will go along with you to a certain point and give you signs that YES, there is something out there. This will give you the confidence to take the final leap in the faith which is blind.
The way it works is, you believe in God but you will see him only after you die.

That didn't answer my question.

Do you believe in EVERYTHING that hasn't been absolutely disproven? If not, how do you choose which things to believe in
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Old 06-03-2014, 08:21 PM
 
446 posts, read 399,810 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204 View Post
I appreciate your point, but please keep in mind that you and I had been discussing the idea that God doesn't compel people to believe. I started my response by making the point that the Quran instructs that I'll still be punished harshly for my disbelief. In other words, you may say that I'm not compelled to believe, but, in truth, if I reject Islam the Quran is clear that I will be punished. I'm actually not free to simply walk away, which I don't appreciate.

I have answered this quite a few times. If seeing is believing then we will see God only after we die. This is true for believers and untrue for non-believers.

When you say "you are not actually free to simply walk away", it's like saying, "I am actually not free to live forever". And you know the answer to this.

I believe that I have to die - and there is no way out of it - THEN the possibility of seeing God comes into play FOR ME and this may not be true FOR YOU.

Personally, if science, reason, logic, and knowledge could show me a way to live forever, I may think not to believe in God BUT soon as I realize that I have to die then I automatically think, what happens next?


Now, if you believe that you have to die and there is no way out of it BUT there is no possibility of seeing God then our discussion on this topic ends here. My job was to convey you the message that God exists and he is merciful and you should consider thinking about life after death, and in return if you believe it's not true then I don't have to engage in anymore discussion on this topic. It's purely your free choice. You made the choice, we are done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204 View Post

As just one example among many, many I can find, here's what Sheik Taj Din al-Hilaly, former Mufti of Australia and Imam of the Lakemba Mosque, said in a sermon at the Lakemba Mosque October 2006: "Those atheists, people of the book [Christians and Jews], where will they end up? ... In hell and not part-time, for eternity. They are the worst in God’s creation."

| The Australian
Have you read Quran 2:62 yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204 View Post

Next, I appreciate your sentiment regarding the Quran and your dismissing its call for violence. The Quran is a confusing book in that it literally prescribes two opposing ideas about the same subject. In the context you and I are discussing, the Quran will say in one verse to go kill the infidels, and yet in another verse say only use violence as a defense. The Quran instructs Muslims to be polite in their attempts to convert non-Muslims by using "beautiful preaching," yet then again it says to chop off the heads of the non-believers.
wrong again. Read the circumstances in which the verse was revealed and then read it's detail and application under Islamic jurisprudence.
And no, there is no where mentioned in Quran to chop off the heads of non-believers JUST BECAUSE they are non-believers. Had this been true, you would have had not millions of non-muslims living peacefully and fully practicing their faith in many Islamic countries. Again, read the background and circumstances of the verses. Quran is not a confused book, you are the one confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204 View Post
I suggest to you that many of the most vocal Islamic leaders tend to stir Muslims into a frenzy by using these verses that espouse violence. That is, the verses you criticize me for cherry-picking are precisely the verses Islamic leaders use to achieve their religious goals, which is why I included the additional verses. Here's a site with many interesting quotes:
What Muslim leaders say about Islam.

As just one example: "Ali Gomaa, the grand mufti of Egypt, the highest Muslim religious authority in the world, supports murdering non-Muslims. In the daily Al Ahram (April 7, 2008), he said, 'Muslims must kill non-believers wherever they are unless they convert to Islam.'" His point seems pretty clear to me, and he's not alone in his beliefs.

I would challenge you to instead of criticizing me for cherry-picking verses from the Quran, to criticize the Islamic leaders and the jihadists who use the exact same verses to justify their killing. Pakistani Muslims: 'Killing an infidel is not a sin'

I'm not saying the Quran is nothing but violence. I'm not saying all Muslims are violent. But I am saying that the few verses in the Quran that do discuss violence are the ones certain Muslims embrace dearly. I caution you, however, that if you criticize these Islamic leaders, you can expect a ruling, calling for your death. I'm not embellishing or trying to be funny. Here again there are many examples concerning what happens to those who dare to criticize Islam, or for simply drawing a cartoon of Muhammad.

As for the Turks tolerating the Jews, I'm happy to hear it. Now, why don't you talk to Saudi Arabia, which until March 1, 2004, the official government website stated that Jews were forbidden from entering the country. Although the webpage was changed because of complaints, no one who admits to being Jewish on visa paperwork or who has an Israeli stamp on their passport is allowed into the country. It's difficult to have respect for countries and peoples who hold these prejudices. And please don't act like it's rare. It's not. And it's all because of Religion.

Why don't you tell France to retract the law of banning headscarf? Guess what? There country, there laws.


Well, I was expecting a little better from you but hey, watch a few videos on YT where a Jewish couple is attacked by some thugs and guess who comes to rescue them? A Muslim man.

Let me give you another example, and this is a first hand one.
There are about 150 high end apartments in the upscale community that we currently live in. Our household is the only Muslims in the community of highly educated professionals of predominantly white race. There are lots and lots of children in our apartment complex. And then there is a Jewish (single) mom with two kids. She does not let her kids go to ANYONE's home EXCEPT for ONE home, and guess which home is that? Yes, it's the only Muslim home in the community. There must be a reason why she trusts us with her kids.

There are thousands upon thousands of good and bad muslims, christians and hindus and atheist and what not ... I guess you got the idea?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204 View Post
And not to get too far off point, but I have little respect for a religion whose diplomats won't even shake hands with the US Secretary of State simply because she's a woman. Really! I'm supposed to respect this? I'm supposed to want this? These beliefs will enhance my life? I'll end by saying that you may be an apologist and see Islam as nothing but peaceful, charming, and rosy. But what I see - as I see with Judaism and Christianity - is severe discrimination, lack of freedoms, outdated and backward social practices that are harmful and deadly, and a laundry list of hypocrisies. And after all that, you still have no evidence there's a god. I say, No thank you.
You have been brain washed to think that "not shaking a hand with a female" is due to hate for females. What a pity!
Understand the message of Islam, A muslim man is asked to "lower his gaze" when he sees a female DUE TO SHEER RESPECT for the female. A Muslim may refrain to shake hand with a female DUE TO SHEER RESPECT for the female. These are a couple of Islamic etiquettes that impressed millions of WOMEN who converted to Islam
And did you know that the number of females is higher among the converts to Islam? There MUST be something that those women see beyond the 'not shake hand' gesture, that you are not seeing.
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Old 06-03-2014, 08:24 PM
 
446 posts, read 399,810 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by roscomac View Post
That didn't answer my question.

Do you believe in EVERYTHING that hasn't been absolutely disproven? If not, how do you choose which things to believe in
I don't have to choose things that concern me, my book has already chosen them me.
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Old 06-03-2014, 08:55 PM
 
446 posts, read 399,810 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by RC01 View Post
I also have no evidence that there is not a teacup orbiting the sun between Jupiter and Saturn
You also have no evidence that you will get paid but you still work for your boss because you have faith in getting paid for your work.
You also have no evidence that you will get fired but you still avoid not being absent from your work on continuous basis and without letting anyone know.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Detroit
983 posts, read 1,430,735 times
Reputation: 1065
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
You also have no evidence that you will get paid but you still work for your boss because you have faith in getting paid for your work.
You also have no evidence that you will get fired but you still avoid not being absent from your work on continuous basis and without letting anyone know.
I have contracts I signed at my job regarding compensation, policies, etc. I know I will get paid, and I know I would be fired.

The burden of proof lies with someone who is making a claim, and is not upon anyone else to disprove
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Old 06-04-2014, 03:10 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,285,422 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
The definition of evidence differs from person to person.
Given you are not offering us ANY at all.... attempting to differentiate the types is a bit useless is it not? It would like being given an entirely empty box and then trying to separate the contents by color.
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