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Old 06-05-2014, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,963 posts, read 6,499,578 times
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Current post #133:
Quote:
there are many godless people who have done a lot of hurt to themselves and the society they live in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Visit a local jail and you will find plenty of them in lock ups.
Fail.

Most people in jail are Christians. Atheists are near the bottom:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...ever-imagined/

You just admitted you lied which is now multiple times. Please do the right thing and leave this sub forum. You are making yourself look bad.

Last edited by John13; 06-05-2014 at 08:12 PM..
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Old 06-05-2014, 08:00 PM
 
16,098 posts, read 17,899,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
I don't have any disagreement with what you said, but what's the point here? We see that there good and bad people in BOTH groups of religiously inclined and godless people. So why blame RELIGION when a religiously inclined person does something wrong, and ignore religion when a religiously inclined person does something good?

And when a godless person does something right, appreciate that he did it because he is not religious and when a godless person does something wrong, don't ponder that perhaps he did the wrong act because he is missing God in his life?
In a lot of cases, it is the particular church that promotes bad acts. There is no such thing in atheism because each atheist decides for himself.

Examples abound of churches preaching hatred and their parishoners acting on the hatred.
We’ve all seen the members of Westboro Baptist Church picketing military funerals, their kids in tow, waving their “God Hates Fags” signs.
The Catholic Church has been covering up for pedophiles in the priesthood for a long time (many other churches have had the same problem, but without as much publicity).
So many churches try to limit women's access to contraceptives which means more children born to parents who really cannot afford them or who will abuse them - all that with no thought of actually offering to adopt the unwanted child especially if those children have disabilities (at least they don't adopt in the numbers needed if they want to stop contraception and abortion).
Not only that, but these religions want to have their beliefs introduced into science classes in the public schools which allows our children to be uneducated in terms of pursuing scientific careers. And they try to make laws that stop the advance of science such as stem cell research.

The Catholic Church used to say that if they had a child from birth to age 7, they would have him forever. That is less true today because of the amount of scientific knowledge children can gain from the internet, but churches are still attempting to keep children from exploring anything other than their parent's faith.

No, when a godless person does something right, it is not because he is not religious. When he does something wrong, it is not because of his irreligion either. When a godless person does anything, he is responsible for his own actions. He cannot blame it or credit it to anyone other than himself.
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Old 06-05-2014, 08:24 PM
 
446 posts, read 399,424 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
In a lot of cases, it is the particular church that promotes bad acts. There is no such thing in atheism because each atheist decides for himself.

Examples abound of churches preaching hatred and their parishoners acting on the hatred.
We’ve all seen the members of Westboro Baptist Church picketing military funerals, their kids in tow, waving their “God Hates Fags” signs.
The Catholic Church has been covering up for pedophiles in the priesthood for a long time (many other churches have had the same problem, but without as much publicity).
So many churches try to limit women's access to contraceptives which means more children born to parents who really cannot afford them or who will abuse them - all that with no thought of actually offering to adopt the unwanted child especially if those children have disabilities (at least they don't adopt in the numbers needed if they want to stop contraception and abortion).
Not only that, but these religions want to have their beliefs introduced into science classes in the public schools which allows our children to be uneducated in terms of pursuing scientific careers. And they try to make laws that stop the advance of science such as stem cell research.

The Catholic Church used to say that if they had a child from birth to age 7, they would have him forever. That is less true today because of the amount of scientific knowledge children can gain from the internet, but churches are still attempting to keep children from exploring anything other than their parent's faith.

No, when a godless person does something right, it is not because he is not religious. When he does something wrong, it is not because of his irreligion either. When a godless person does anything, he is responsible for his own actions. He cannot blame it or credit it to anyone other than himself.
I agree.
In the true faith, when a believer does something good, he displays meekness and credits God for making him do the good things, and when he does something bad, he blames himself, seeks repentance from God and tries his best to not repeat that mistake.
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Old 06-05-2014, 08:44 PM
 
37 posts, read 32,762 times
Reputation: 23
religion is man-made, this is why it exists.

God may have made the Bible or Koran but then he leaves it up to man to say how his words be interpreted.
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:25 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 6,091,191 times
Reputation: 4527
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
In a lot of cases, it is the particular church that promotes bad acts. There is no such thing in atheism because each atheist decides for himself.

Examples abound of churches preaching hatred and their parishoners acting on the hatred.
We’ve all seen the members of Westboro Baptist Church picketing military funerals, their kids in tow, waving their “God Hates Fags” signs.
The Catholic Church has been covering up for pedophiles in the priesthood for a long time (many other churches have had the same problem, but without as much publicity).
So many churches try to limit women's access to contraceptives which means more children born to parents who really cannot afford them or who will abuse them - all that with no thought of actually offering to adopt the unwanted child especially if those children have disabilities (at least they don't adopt in the numbers needed if they want to stop contraception and abortion).
Not only that, but these religions want to have their beliefs introduced into science classes in the public schools which allows our children to be uneducated in terms of pursuing scientific careers. And they try to make laws that stop the advance of science such as stem cell research.

The Catholic Church used to say that if they had a child from birth to age 7, they would have him forever. That is less true today because of the amount of scientific knowledge children can gain from the internet, but churches are still attempting to keep children from exploring anything other than their parent's faith.

No, when a godless person does something right, it is not because he is not religious. When he does something wrong, it is not because of his irreligion either. When a godless person does anything, he is responsible for his own actions. He cannot blame it or credit it to anyone other than himself.
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

Steven Weinberg
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
20,332 posts, read 10,448,010 times
Reputation: 7964
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
I agree.
In the true faith, when a believer does something good, he displays meekness and credits God for making him do the good things, and when he does something bad, he blames himself, seeks repentance from God and tries his best to not repeat that mistake.
Bull. When a believer does something wrong they blame Satan, or original sin, or anything but themselves.
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Old 06-05-2014, 11:41 PM
 
Location: the Orion Spur
91 posts, read 85,567 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
I have answered this quite a few times. If seeing is believing then we will see God only after we die. This is true for believers and untrue for non-believers.

When you say "you are not actually free to simply walk away", it's like saying, "I am actually not free to live forever". And you know the answer to this.

I believe that I have to die - and there is no way out of it - THEN the possibility of seeing God comes into play FOR ME and this may not be true FOR YOU.

Personally, if science, reason, logic, and knowledge could show me a way to live forever, I may think not to believe in God BUT soon as I realize that I have to die then I automatically think, what happens next?
I'm not saying I want to live forever. The thought doesn't come into my mind. I'm merely pointing out the oddity that on the one hand, God doesn't compel me to believe, while on the other hand, if I don't believe then I will be punished. If you can't see the inherent unfairness in that, that's fine.

I'm not mocking you when I say that your response seems to reveal that part of your motivation for your belief is based on your fear of the unknown. I can understand this, but I don't share your fear.

Let me be clear about one thing: I don't have a problem with people who hold religious beliefs if that is what gets them through the day. To me, religions are contrived by humans to meet human needs. Fine. So let's simply agree that at this moment in time what happens after we die remains completely unknown.

I recall that you said in an earlier post that when you die, if you were to meet the Christian god, you'd be confident you'll be forgiven because you at least believed in something. (I apologize if I misquoted you.) I hold a similar sentiment. That is, if there is a god and an afterlife, which I have no evidence to believe, I do not believe I'll be damned for eternity solely because I remained unconvinced that any of the hokey stories told to me were true. If you step back and view all three of the Western Traditions, you should be able to see that they are actually quite silly, as well as missing a lot of information, given today's levels of understanding. In fact, they should all be gracefully retired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Now, if you believe that you have to die and there is no way out of it BUT there is no possibility of seeing God then our discussion on this topic ends here. My job was to convey you the message that God exists and he is merciful and you should consider thinking about life after death, and in return if you believe it's not true then I don't have to engage in anymore discussion on this topic. It's purely your free choice. You made the choice, we are done.

Have you read Quran 2:62 yet?
I read the verse, but it seems to suggest that only Jews and Christians who lived before the prophet Muhammad are counted. I searched for many versions of the verse, so you tell me which version you prefer. Despite your doubts otherwise, I'm more familiar with the Deen than you may think. I am not, however, very familiar with this particular issue in Islam. Nevertheless, as an Atheist, I am disqualified.

Quran 2:62

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
wrong again. Read the circumstances in which the verse was revealed and then read it's detail and application under Islamic jurisprudence.
And no, there is no where mentioned in Quran to chop off the heads of non-believers JUST BECAUSE they are non-believers. Had this been true, you would have had not millions of non-muslims living peacefully and fully practicing their faith in many Islamic countries. Again, read the background and circumstances of the verses. Quran is not a confused book, you are the one confused.

Why don't you tell France to retract the law of banning headscarf? Guess what? There country, there laws.
You raise an interesting point about France. This issue, for me, has been an interesting one to watch unfold. I remember very well reading about this back in 2009 and having trouble deciding how I felt. That said, I think I grasp why Sarkozy made the decision to announce that "religious veils are not welcome in France."

I'm also familiar with the ongoing Islamification of France, as well as other parts of Europe. I can't explain succinctly here how I feel, but I will say that I'd hate to see any of those countries lose their culture and freedoms as a result of Muslim immigration.

Before you get offended, let me share a little about my background, which I wasn't sure I'd share, mostly because I'm sure no one cares. I have never been religious. Considering what I've read in these threads, I think I've been fortunate. The personal stories I read concerning the encounters Atheists have had with Christians are foreign to me. Most people I know and encounter are nonbelievers. The stories I read here make me feel naive and ignorant -- certainly outraged.

But I have spent considerable time studying world religions both formally and informally. They fascinate me, but never once in a religious way. I can't explain why I enjoy them. Perhaps I'm curious to know what makes so many people act so crazy. I've read the foundational books as well as the books that explain the books. In particular, I enjoy learning the history of these religions. I wish only that I could read the texts in their original languages. So far, the only one that makes sense to me is Buddhism.

I tell you this because if I were an alien and decided to spend time on earth and was told to pick a religion, the three western religions would all be picked last. But of those three, I'd probably pick Islam before Christianity or Judaism, assuming I'm just reading the pamphlets. I'd pick Christianity over Judaism until you get to the Book of Revelations. So please know that I don't hate Islam.

That said, however, what I can't understand, and I search to understand, is the phenomenon of the Radicalization of Muslims. What causes them to turn to the extreme orthodoxy, becoming fundamentalists, I do not know. (In Europe, perhaps it's mostly economics.) Forgive me, but I see Islamic Fundamentalists as a serious problem in the world today. To be fair, certain Christians aren't much better and are equally dangerous. I believe Islamic Fundamentalists will ultimately try to introduce and impose Islamic law in countries in Europe, and it would be a shame to watch. You may disagree, but the development of events fairly points in that direction, especially in the UK, which at the moment has the most radical Muslims. At least agree that relations aren't getting better.

You mention below the respect men have for women in Islam, which sounds lovely, but in practice women are not treated as equals in Islam, despite the many women converting to the faith. If you have a source for that, I'd be interested to see it. Not to embarrass Islam, but the way it can distort men and women is unfortunate. I believe Islam, in practice, can twist the mind.

For instance, are you familiar with Bacha Bazi? Please watch this Frontline episode about Bacha Bazi, the dancing boys of Afghanistan. For those unfamiliar with this, because the intermixing of men and women is restricted in Islam, the men simply have boys dress up as girls and dance for them. The men often take things further than dancing. So, because men and women aren't allowed to intermingle, this is how men make do. Wouldn't it be healthier to simply allow men and women to intermingle?

I try not to cite Wikipedia, but here's the basics. Bacha bazi. To me, this custom is evidence and proof of how harmful and damaging religion can be and how, in practice, religion imposes distorted social rules, creating absurd social customs. Feel free to dismiss Bacha Bazi as innocent or unusual. But it's neither. It's disturbing, and it's all because of religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Well, I was expecting a little better from you but hey, watch a few videos on YT where a Jewish couple is attacked by some thugs and guess who comes to rescue them? A Muslim man.

Let me give you another example, and this is a first hand one.
There are about 150 high end apartments in the upscale community that we currently live in. Our household is the only Muslims in the community of highly educated professionals of predominantly white race. There are lots and lots of children in our apartment complex. And then there is a Jewish (single) mom with two kids. She does not let her kids go to ANYONE's home EXCEPT for ONE home, and guess which home is that? Yes, it's the only Muslim home in the community. There must be a reason why she trusts us with her kids.

There are thousands upon thousands of good and bad muslims, christians and hindus and atheist and what not ... I guess you got the idea?
I agree with you that there are good and bad people from all walks of life. Of course you can't condemn a large group for the actions of a few individuals. I'm happy to hear that you are well liked by your neighbors. While you seem to be quite tenacious, you've been polite to me. It's sad that the rest of the world can't get along so well.

As an Atheist, I note that many Muslim countries make Atheism a crime. In fact, the only countries on the planet where being an Atheist is a crime worthy of death are Muslim countries. These countries are Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen.

Atheists face death in 13 countries, global discrimination: study

Here's a different list from last year.

The seven countries where the state can execute you for being atheist

Please explain why I should view these countries, including their underlying societies, with any respect considering how they view me? In this thread you share your personal beliefs about Islam and give the impression that all Muslims are peaceful, caring people. What I see in reality is a list of intolerant countries that might kill me simply for lacking religious beliefs. It's antiquated, outdated, backwards, and harmful to people. What's sad is that there was a point in history where Islamic countries were far more civilized than western countries. I don't know why they're so backwards today in comparison.

You may be thinking that I'm damning Islam. I'm merely reporting what I see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
You have been brain washed to think that "not shaking a hand with a female" is due to hate for females. What a pity!
Understand the message of Islam, A muslim man is asked to "lower his gaze" when he sees a female DUE TO SHEER RESPECT for the female. A Muslim may refrain to shake hand with a female DUE TO SHEER RESPECT for the female. These are a couple of Islamic etiquettes that impressed millions of WOMEN who converted to Islam
And did you know that the number of females is higher among the converts to Islam? There MUST be something that those women see beyond the 'not shake hand' gesture, that you are not seeing.

Last edited by Mantronix4204; 06-06-2014 at 12:46 AM..
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Old 06-06-2014, 02:39 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,281,714 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Visit a local jail and you will find plenty of them in lock ups.
Actually Atheists in the prison populations in places like the US are disproportionately extremely under represented. The statistics for prison populations say the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are trying here to suggest they do and they do not come off making your pet religion look good.

But you are far from the first theist to waltz into this area of the forum to misrepresent statistics that you did not even bother to cite or present.
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:17 AM
 
446 posts, read 399,424 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by desiuntrun View Post
religion is man-made, this is why it exists.

God may have made the Bible or Koran but then he leaves it up to man to say how his words be interpreted.
Atheism is actually man made.
Religious people at least their holy books as a sign of God. Atheists have absolutely no proof and no way to prove there is no God.
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:20 AM
 
446 posts, read 399,424 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose View Post
Bull. When a believer does something wrong they blame Satan, or original sin, or anything but themselves.
Then they are following a faith that allows them to do so. My faith does not approve what you said.
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