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Old 06-06-2014, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,971 posts, read 6,509,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
lol. Hahah
Looks like Hinduism and Sikhism beat Atheism by your logic and this data.
What logic is that?

Nevermind, I have no confidence in you to tell the truth. As an atheist I couldn't live like that.

Quote:
Visit a local jail and you will find plenty of them in lock ups.
What is the main goal of religion?

I posted a reference to prove you are wrong. How about doing the right thing and backing up your claim that there are "plenty" of atheists tied to the judicial system and:
Quote:
there are many godless people who have done a lot of hurt to themselves and the society they live in.
Still waiting. You posted it now prove it.
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Old 06-07-2014, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,097,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Dude, use a little common sense. The percentages of people in jail perhaps represents the demographic population ,, MAY BE ??
May be there is a bigger population of Christians in the U.S. that's why there are more Christians in jails? Hello?
Now you are arguing yet another point, which is different from the original one. Sadly, Christians, who if their moral code were actually superior or had more authority and efficacy, should be represented in prison populations LESS than their percentage of the general population, cannot demonstrate this. Depending on who you believe, I've seen studies that say, as you do, that the percentage of Christians in prison is similar to the percentage in the general populace, and others that say it is higher. To the extent the latter is true then other groups would have to be underrepresented in prison populations.

I certainly can't find any evidence that atheists are disproportionately represented in prisons and/or are disproportionately guilty of more serious crimes.
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Old 06-07-2014, 06:11 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,097,133 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
So what? Many in jails who are convicted criminals claim to have some association with Christianity because there ancestors were Christians, and for themselves these are only Christians by name with practice of faith?

And also, it still doesn't mean that atheists are some how angels who could never end up in a jail?
Yeah and here is the perennial Christian apologetic for anything like this: They Were Never One Of Us. It explains overrepresentation in prison populations, the existence of deconverts, or generally any Christian who does something they find inconvenient or embarrassing. It couldn't POSSIBLY be that Christians are no better off morally or ethically than anyone else.

Now I grant you, that as with all errors, there's a grain of truth to it. Prisoners often embrace religion, sometime for various self-serving reasons including the hope of leniency and to provide credibility for their claims of self-reformation. I am sure that Islam gets this, as well as Christianity. And there are people who list Christianity as their affiliation by default who would not be considered, at least, "good" Christians by any self-respecting fundamentalist. BUT THE SAME THING HAPPENS OUTSIDE OF PRISON. Fundamentalists always complain about "Sunday and Easter Christians", "Cafeteria Christians", etc. So it's not much of an explanation for anything.
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Old 06-07-2014, 06:38 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,097,133 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Fair point and totally understandable.
This is a point where almost every atheist hits the dead end and confirms his decision that he does not want to believe in a God who puts humans in misery; however, there is more to it. However, we all have our reasons to believe what we believe. Please watch these two short video segments. This gentleman is a math professor and holds a supremely high IQ. I didn't put in the next segment to make sure not to put burden on you but it's very interesting.
Well he takes almost 10 minutes of beating around the bush just to ask the $64K question, and then he still hasn't answered it. I suppose he does near the end of the 2nd segment. And sure enough, after skipping about 2/3 of the way through: in effect, suffering is due to human failings, but then again, humans also are capable of good. God knows the Greater Good. Trust him. He knows what he's doing.

Humans do self-inflict some things, but not all. Not by a long shot. A deformed child didn't self inflict. Someone drowned in a tsunami didn't self inflict.

To the point of the OP, religion does strive to answer questions like this, and for most of human history it arguably had the best answers consistent with our inadequate understanding of reality. IMO we now know just enough to know that the answers, such as they are, don't lie with these religious ideations, which only allow us to rationalize and leave things as they are, and palm the responsibility off on god's long range plan. At least in the absence of god the responsibility to Do Something falls where it belongs: with man, who is not as helpless as he sometimes would like he think he is, to make life better for himself and others. And to the extent he is helpless -- for those tsunamis and birth defects and rogue asteroids that come along from time to time -- he need not waste his time and energy shaking his fist at the heavens and asking "why, god?"
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Old 06-07-2014, 07:55 AM
 
Location: the Orion Spur
91 posts, read 85,630 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Yeah and here is the perennial Christian apologetic for anything like this: They Were Never One Of Us. It explains overrepresentation in prison populations, the existence of deconverts, or generally any Christian who does something they find inconvenient or embarrassing. It couldn't POSSIBLY be that Christians are no better off morally or ethically than anyone else.

Now I grant you, that as with all errors, there's a grain of truth to it. Prisoners often embrace religion, sometime for various self-serving reasons including the hope of leniency and to provide credibility for their claims of self-reformation. I am sure that Islam gets this, as well as Christianity. And there are people who list Christianity as their affiliation by default who would not be considered, at least, "good" Christians by any self-respecting fundamentalist. BUT THE SAME THING HAPPENS OUTSIDE OF PRISON. Fundamentalists always complain about "Sunday and Easter Christians", "Cafeteria Christians", etc. So it's not much of an explanation for anything.

Mordant, you're kind to offer concessions when it's obvious from this discussion that Atheists would receive none in return.

The only issue before us is that Atheists make up less than 1% of the total federal prison population. This refutes the erroneous claim that sparked this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Visit a local jail and you will find plenty of [Atheists] in lock ups.
What's typical about this discussion is that even when presented with a set of measurable data, the religious continue to offer empty, meaningless claims that imply Atheists have no sense of morality whatsoever. If that doesn't work, the religious playbook instructs to simply repeat the assertion that Atheists continue to fail to prove that God doesn't exist. Like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
Atheism is actually man made.
Religious people at least their holy books as a sign of God. Atheists have absolutely no proof and no way to prove there is no God.
After reading the prison population numbers, perhaps it's now time for Christians and Muslims to explain why their faiths are represented AT ALL, if the moral codes laid down in the Bible and Quran are so perfect and pure, as they enjoy asserting repeatedly.

I don't want to hear that Christians and Muslims are human and make mistakes, because Atheists wouldn't receive such understanding. Without question, religious people would do their best to hammer home the idea that Atheists are in prison because they lack any morality and therefore can't help themselves but to murder, rape, and rob.

So what's the religious playbook suggest? Simply dismiss the assertion about Christians with excuses and deflect back to Atheist. Like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ll0OoO0ll View Post
So what? Many in jails who are convicted criminals claim to have some association with Christianity because there ancestors were Christians, and for themselves these are only Christians by name with practice of faith?

And also, it still doesn't mean that atheists are some how angels who could never end up in a jail?
As you can see from the statements above, the religious conveniently move the goal posts to suit their needs. Because while it's good enough to make general, blanket claims about all Atheists lacking morality, when we then discuss Christians and Muslims, we must shift our focus to the specifics concerning each individual, making sure to discount all variables that might expose the inferior quality of morality laid down in the Bible and Quran.

But Mordant, I recognize your kind gesture of concession, because as an Atheist, it must have been very difficult for you to do something kind.
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Old 06-07-2014, 08:58 AM
 
16,105 posts, read 17,923,003 times
Reputation: 15897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204 View Post

But Mordant, I recognize your kind gesture of concession, because as an Atheist, it must have been very difficult for you to do something kind.
How arrogant of you!

Actually, he was not being kind, though. He was being truthful about how the numbers can be interpreted. There are certainly many phony religious people in prison who embrace religion in order to play the system. That does not mean they are or were atheists before that though.

I have been an atheist since I was a young adult. I embrace random acts of kindness and believe that it helps to make the world better. It is not hard at all for atheists to be kind.
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Old 06-07-2014, 09:16 AM
 
Location: the Orion Spur
91 posts, read 85,630 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
How arrogant of you!

Actually, he was not being kind, though. He was being truthful about how the numbers can be interpreted. There are certainly many phony religious people in prison who embrace religion in order to play the system. That does not mean they are or were atheists before that though.

I have been an atheist since I was a young adult. I embrace random acts of kindness and believe that it helps to make the world better. It is not hard at all for atheists to be kind.
I was being facetious. I support Mordant 100%.

My attempt at sarcasm seems to have failed.
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Old 06-07-2014, 09:31 AM
 
16,105 posts, read 17,923,003 times
Reputation: 15897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204 View Post
I was being facetious. I support Mordant 100%.

My attempt at sarcasm seems to have failed.
Sorry for my misinterpretation. Sometimes it's hard to see sarcasm on the internet.
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Old 06-07-2014, 09:39 AM
 
Location: the Orion Spur
91 posts, read 85,630 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Sorry for my misinterpretation. Sometimes it's hard to see sarcasm on the internet.
It is hard to interpret sarcasm and tone on the Internet.

But you have no reason to apologize. Any confusion or misunderstanding is completely my fault.
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Old 06-07-2014, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,097,133 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantronix4204 View Post
But Mordant, I recognize your kind gesture of concession, because as an Atheist, it must have been very difficult for you to do something kind.
*chuckle* yeah it's difficult what with all the demon possession and my limited free time due to my long list of serial murders to commit, children to molest, etc. But I manage.

I don't know if "kind" is the right word, but I generally feel it's right (though, as you point out, I can never expect any credit for it) to acknowledge the little pie-wedge of the opposing argument that has at least a bit of merit, or I'd be open to accusations of absolutism, not listening, and dehumanizing my opponent. Besides, even when someone has not a single leg to stand on logically speaking, I don't see any harm in showing that I hear them and that I acknowledge their feelings and that their own experiences feel real to them. After all, I was one of them once.
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