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Old 01-13-2015, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,671,429 times
Reputation: 1698

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
That is it. While we almost think we understand it, there in enough unknown about it to serve as a gap for God. They are running out of them these days, so they can't be too choosy.




While not a big fan of the messenger. I would say the message is in general accurate. That's why me thinks there will probably always be gaps for people to fill with whatever deity/force they want. For me personally. I prefer to fill the gaps with sweet ricotta. The stuff they fill canolli with.

Mmmmmm......Cannoli .


Last edited by baystater; 01-13-2015 at 06:12 PM..
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Old 01-13-2015, 09:48 PM
 
40,084 posts, read 26,750,404 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The snarling is lighthearted . . . accommodating your description of us. You and I will maintain our differences . . . but lurkers might benefit from the dialogue, old friend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
That is indeed the only point in responding. You won't convince me and I won't persuade you, which is fine. It is necessary however, that claims and arguments be responded to for the benefit of readers, posting or lurking.
Btw, I think lurkers are fine. I lurk myself, quite a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Generally, I agree with your position. It is just that Mystic and I have argued this up and down and I doubt that either of us will produce now anything that will change our positions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I agree, neither of us have to alter our position or views and because surely all the arguments have been done, neither of us will.
But of course, when either of us post, we are putting our views forward and the implication is that that the readership out there is going to be (perhaps) influenced by our arguments - particularly those as persuasive as Mystic's. Especially to those who would love to believe in a God but haven't up to then seen anything that didn't look pretty waff advanced as an argument.

Mystic's system, with dark matter, Cosmic consciousness and the argument for Dualism relating back to the very erudite hard Question and David Chalmer's arguments against monism is just what they are looking for. And it might persuade a few others, just as Behe's ID persuaded Anthony Flew - before it was shown up as speciously scientific sounding, but actually unsound.
I know what you mean about Deepak Chophra, but that is the answer. To loftily ignore him suits him down to the ground. To argue against his claims is to undermine them. This is why the failure to counter Von Daniken has led to to decades of space -aliens nonsense. It is why I had no doubt that Nye should debate Ken Ham. And why I have to jump on Mystic when he posts plonking faith - claims as fact.
Thus, while I admire Mystic's synthesis, I think it unsound and, having spent months debating the case, I can explain how. This is just giving the 'Other side' - as we should. And rather than anyone taking what I say on trust, let them make up their own minds.
I ask only that they consider the arguments objectively, if they can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Indeed. I believe now that self -justifying bias is the most common method of argument and reasoning that is used, and is actually more admired than wishy -washy reasonableness.
Politics, to me great distress is more to do with bamboozling people into swallowing what you say than telling the truth. Science, while not perfect, does at least have a basis of trying to assess the information objectively and giving weight to how good and sound it is.
That is why the habitual bias, projection, evasion and illogic used to make a case for religion and the God -claim is such a pain. I can see what they are doing, and sometimes I see myself doing it too, but I try to stop and give myself a shake when I find myself doing it.
On the theist side, Faith ..well, it's not only more reliable, but it is more useful and makes one feel better because ( I am pretty sure) it is no coincidence that the the great, powerful and supremely wise, good and superior being for which the apologist is arguing is a mirror image of the person themselves.
I am somewhat amused by this discussion that you are having about me, my views and our intellectual impasse, Arq. It provides a vehicle for your interlocutor indirectly to violate his ban on responding to or talking about me or my views. It provides a means of denigrating me and my views without having to respond to my posts directly or fear being confronted on the baseless assertions made against me. But I do not see any display of genuine knowledge or "persuasive" arguments coming from that quarter. They are transparently nonsense assertions to anyone who actually DOES understand the areas that are being consistently misunderstood by such people. They display NO actual knowledge of their own . . . but repeatedly claim that my knowledge is wrong. It is very tiresome. I write less to have people be influenced by my arguments than to educate those who do not see "one shred of evidence or reason to believe" ANYTHING to do with God.

Moderator cut: deleted

Last edited by june 7th; 01-14-2015 at 07:52 AM..
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Old 01-13-2015, 10:52 PM
 
39,134 posts, read 10,857,554 times
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I'm not sure that all of that was about you, but some of it was. Well, I have taken you to the cleaners often enough before now, even on what is supposedly on your own ground, though you are one of those who never admit they are wrong and have a certificate to prove it. Gaylenwoof seems to take you seriously, but when you make claims about divine revelation and the spiritual; fossil record and dark matter as a consciousness field, which by all reason are pure faith -based claims with no valid basis, I can't.

The only concern I have is whether there is something that I should consider, which is why I spent so much time on the Hard Question, and I haven't found much of a problem for atheism there and Gaylen appears to have moved a bit towards accepting that it isn't.

It doesn't bother me a bit that you take a lofty and condescending view of my efforts. All that matters to me is whether your arguments claims and hypotheses pose a serious question for non -belief.

They don't and I so say. If the last bits about Chopra -thinking were linked to you, I should apologize and not be so personal (though the Mods should have warned me if they were). I suspect though that they were more to do with the OP and your reasons for taking it personally I leave to you.
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Old 01-14-2015, 05:05 AM
 
Location: US Wilderness
1,233 posts, read 874,669 times
Reputation: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by baystater View Post


While not a big fan of the messenger. I would say the message is in general accurate. That's why me thinks there will probably always be gaps for people to fill with whatever deity/force they want. For me personally. I prefer to fill the gaps with sweet ricotta. The stuff they fill canolli with.

Mmmmmm......Cannoli .
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
Just make sure it is not poisoned.

You know, that sounds a lot like this forum.
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Old 01-14-2015, 06:01 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 5,001,803 times
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We (the universe) came from something or noting. Nothing freaks me out more than nothing so I am a something guy. Then from that point we can try making some predictions ...lol ...predictions about the past ... that made me laugh, sorry.

I am not a "gap" guy either. Blind faith is not what it is about. It is not "god's way". It is about describing what we don't know using something we do know. But we have to be smart enough to know what we don't know. Although these analogy may be incomplete and fall woefully short when we know what we didn't know it really is the "rational" place to start.

And killing or support killing people over a joke about a god is flat out insane. There is no reasoning with people like that. And the places to put them are shrinking. Now what?
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:25 AM
 
3,637 posts, read 2,698,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It provides a means of denigrating me and my views without having to respond to my posts directly or fear being confronted on the baseless assertions made against me.
Given how many posts on this thread you have ignored - from me for example - I do not think anyone needs to fear being confronted by you. You talk of "displays of genuine knowledge"? Why not attempt some yourself because thus far you have only offered assertion based on nothing - while denigrating those who do not agree with you.

You ignore those who reply to you - and you indirectly denigrate other users who have expressed views you disagree with - but are too scared to reply to either it seems. Where are your replies to the users of whom you speak? Or do you just feel safer talking about them in the third person?

I asked you already - why not simply present your case without the analogies. Given how badly you misuse analogies - and you have been called on - and schooled on - your massive errors in this on many threads now - I think we would actually prefer you attempt the "rigorous explanations" for once. No really. Go for it. We are all ears. Drop the misleading analogies and rigorously provide us the basis for your claims about god and your idea that the universe itself is concious - that Jesus was something more than human - and that human consciousness and experience survives the death of the brain.

But you just ignore such posts and requests - then pretend people are not able to engage your with intellectual rigour. Perhaps this makes you sleep better at night but I am not buying it. Answer the question. Stop dodging.

I have been asking you for months now - give us this rigorous explanation. Do not hide behind the claim that the reason you are not giving it is you fear it will be incomprehensible. That is not for you to judge - as I feel you underestimate us.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,429 posts, read 5,671,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
We (the universe) came from something or noting. Nothing freaks me out more than nothing so I am a something guy.
I'm intrigued. Why does nothing freak you out?
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:39 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 5,001,803 times
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Nothing, absolute nothing, not a speck, not a stich, zero, zilch, not-a, not a single particle, nothing even to add up to zero ... no spell checker? ... AAAAAHHHHHHHHH ... blue screen ... clt-alt-del ... ... oh noooooo .... hard reboot ...

Ima "something" guy.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:47 AM
 
39,134 posts, read 10,857,554 times
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Curious. I'm a 'something' guy, too. But the whole idea of a universe of illusion made of nothing doesn't freak me out at all. Why? I suppose because understanding the concept, I can put it into the file marked irrelevant to daily life' and act as though solidity was solid. Becasue made of nothing and entirely illusory, it is nevertheless reliably repeatable and thus can be lived in as though it was just as it appears to us.

Does it freak you out that you are really upside -down as seen from the Australes? Of course not, even though you accept that the world is round. Because you are familiar with the idea, are used to it and have mentally filed it away in the 'irrelevant to daily life' file in your head. You live as though your earth was flat even though you know it isn't.

I'd suggest that all you need to do is understand the concept and become familiar with it and understand that it makes no difference. Then you will cease freaking out.

Unless of course you enjoy it and a universe of nothing gives you a good reason to.
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Old 01-14-2015, 10:00 AM
 
13,493 posts, read 5,001,803 times
Reputation: 1365
your response post is irrational. Not sure why you insulted me, why you barked like upside down dingo?

"freaks" is just word right, I have no angst or anxiety about was before our universe past talking about the start of the universe. Some people like food, others clothes, cars, and sports. And some like to think about how things work. I like science and engineering. It really is not a big deal past that. I think some render to the "unneeded to me file' to help justify a stance based on lack of information. Some even do it to relieve the angst of talking about things past their understanding. People even do it when the evidence countering their view seems to be valid.

I even like thinking about "what is pushing back" when I am leaning on a wall. Because it is cool stuff to me.

Last edited by Arach Angle; 01-14-2015 at 10:12 AM..
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