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Old 04-26-2014, 08:14 PM
 
40,090 posts, read 26,755,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
I've always had a problem with this mode of thinking - that "it closes the mind" and "inspires no one."
The problem is that reality doesn't have to be inspirational. I'm not sure how humanity got it in their heads that "the truth" of our reality has to involve really keen ideas such as afterlives, creators, some cosmic sense of justice, and other inspirational, spiritual, and wonderful epiphanies. That is a human bias, projecting what we WANT into the darkness of our ignorance. I'm just not convinced that it works that way.
It can be revealing to introspect on why it is we would ever WANT it in the first place, Shirina.
Quote:
Yeah, I know the real world can suck sometimes; it's full of pain, suffering, and loss. It is natural then that we want a grandiose explanation for our existence; we weant it to MEAN something so that all that we endure isn't in vain. Again, though, I'm not convinced there is some grand meaning to our existence - perhaps we're just like any other animal in that our reason to exist is to simply survive.
Again . . . why on earth would it be natural? It is NOT like any other animal . . . to our knowledge. What is the source of this strange wanting?
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Old 04-27-2014, 12:26 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,743,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It can be revealing to introspect on why it is we would ever WANT it in the first place, Shirina.
Again . . . why on earth would it be natural? It is NOT like any other animal . . . to our knowledge. What is the source of this strange wanting?
why do plants "want" the sun, why do bees "want" nectar, why do pets "want" to be petted?

The source/cause of wanting can be natural and impersonal.
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Old 04-27-2014, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Texas
35,282 posts, read 19,307,980 times
Reputation: 20910
Smile The New Message for Atheists

I have to say that I prefer this one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLuXod8bR0Q

YMMV
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Old 04-27-2014, 07:47 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,251,727 times
Reputation: 1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by .EL. View Post
Some of you reference materials you have already read to find labels to fit what I have written. This tool is necessary for you to compartmentalize ideas in order to categorize what you read. To best understand my material you should read it with a clear mind, free of prejudice, bias, theories, and influence; keep an open mind to any possibility. And please do not apply these labels to me as I am none of them.

Thank you


.EL.
Then you need to explain a little better. What you have written doesn't make any sense. What you are presenting is either a way to try and slide God in under the radar by trying ot construct a natural god, or a way to try to dissemble enough to allow theists to give you a pass. You are trying to insert an unecessary entitiy into the chain. If thereis a first cause, then call it god and be done with it. If there is no first casue, then why does it matter if some alien entity was formed through abiogenesis and then made us, or if our evolutionary process began with abiogenesis? Either way it occurred...

If you don't give us anything that can be followed in a logical progression, then don't be surprised if we make incorrect guesses as to what you are saying...

-NoCapo
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Old 04-28-2014, 01:57 PM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,193 posts, read 11,006,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
I have to say that I prefer this one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLuXod8bR0Q

YMMV
One of my favorites!
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Old 05-04-2014, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Ohio
1,268 posts, read 623,471 times
Reputation: 1460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110 View Post
I have no problem with humanity being an accidental product of the Big Bang. We are not "nothing," in the sense that we are stardust that happened to organize. While we are alive and sentient, we are humans. When we die, our molecules rearrange. That's it. There is no reason why. We have no purpose but that which we give ourselves.
I tend to agree, and this is miraculous in itself. While a random act, we are stardust. Natural occurrence has miracles without any deity.
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:43 AM
 
40,090 posts, read 26,755,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It can be revealing to introspect on why it is we would ever WANT it in the first place, Shirina.
Again . . . why on earth would it be natural? It is NOT like any other animal . . . to our knowledge. What is the source of this strange wanting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
why do plants "want" the sun, why do bees "want" nectar, why do pets "want" to be petted?
The source/cause of wanting can be natural and impersonal.
You take one very important nuance for granted (as do we all, usually) . . . the entity that actually does the wanting willfully . . . our consciousness. Because we use it to think about and evaluate these issues . . . we don't think about it as an entity that exists within the universe as an energy composite. Unlike the flames of a fire . . . our consciousness has a composite identity and integrity. It is not merely individual reactions or activity . . . as the flames of a fire. It acts as single entity with identity and purpose . . . and IT is what does the "wanting, desiring, loving, hating, etc." . . . not the physical processes that produce it.
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Old 05-05-2014, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,089,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
What is the source of this strange wanting?
Self-awareness. There is no mystery to it; we are the only known species who fully grasps the story arc and context of our own lives, understands the reality of our own mortality, and has the opportunity to have hopes, dreams and aspirations, whether realized or thwarted -- as well as the opportunity to dread our ultimate dissolution. We are able to think about ourselves thinking. It's called the human condition.

Arguably, dolphins, orcas, some primates, elephants, etc., are partially self-aware in the same sense, if perhaps at a lower amplitude. While it arguably happens that we are the only species on earth with this ability, that in itself is not significant. I would expect there to be self-aware species elsewhere in the universe, perhaps 2 or more on some worlds. Do you think there is some significance to humans being arguably unique in this regard? If so, do you also think it's significant or transcendent that, say, there is only one city in Illinois named Chicago, or that there is but one South Pole?
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Old 05-06-2014, 03:21 AM
 
3,637 posts, read 2,699,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
we use it to think about and evaluate these issues . . . we don't think about it as an entity that exists within the universe as an energy composite. Unlike the flames of a fire . . . our consciousness has a composite identity and integrity.
Just because we do not think of it as such - - does not mean it is not such. You can not declare consciousness to be whatever you want just because people do not think about it. You declare that the desire is not the physical process that produces it. What do you base this one? Why is it not simply an emergent process of that process?
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,089,205 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
Just because we do not think of it as such - - does not mean it is not such. You can not declare consciousness to be whatever you want just because people do not think about it. You declare that the desire is not the physical process that produces it. What do you base this one? Why is it not simply an emergent process of that process?
Don't use the word "emergent" with Mystic. He hates it. He doesn't think there's such a thing as an emergent property.
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