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Old 04-28-2014, 07:23 PM
 
2,441 posts, read 1,940,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beninfl View Post

PS - Catholics in the Vatican have stated that Atheists and Agnostics can still go to heaven. So, even if we're wrong, we didnt burn our ticket in to have porkchops with Jesus.
Unless the Lutherans are right, in which case we, the catholics and the baptists will all be burning together.
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Old 04-28-2014, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Illinois
4,754 posts, read 4,328,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakfish View Post

Once you come to the conclusion that there is no God you make yourself the standard of morality. Once you do that, anything goes and there is no longer any right or wrong. That is the scary part.
While I understand where you're coming from, you do understand that there is a difference between God and religion, right? And that you can have God without religion too.
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Old 04-28-2014, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Albany, GA
76 posts, read 93,202 times
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I consider moral arguments to be quite effective as well since everyone can relate.

For example, is the death penalty a reasonable punishment for homosexuality, an arbitrary and inherent qualification? I think that if the only Biblical sin someone ever committed was homosexuality, the fact that God would find that as reason to burn them in hell forever after commanding his people to kill them is sociopathic considering (if he existed) he created them with homosexual desires. Why would a God establish an unachievable moral standard and send everyone to hell because he created them incapable to follow it? Why would God create a universe billions of light-years across and care about how a few primates on an essentially irrelevant planet have sex? Why does God allow rape, murder, and slavery if he is all-good and possesses the ability to prevent it effortlessly? You'll soon find out that YOU are more moral than your God, and that's okay!
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Old 04-28-2014, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Albany, GA
76 posts, read 93,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakfish View Post
Once you come to the conclusion that there is no God you make yourself the standard of morality. Once you do that, anything goes and there is no longer any right or wrong. That is the scary part.
I had this misconception for a while too. The fact is, the Bible supports slavery, manslaughter, and genocide, some of the most unspeakable acts of modern society, so its relevance to what is right and wrong is virtually useless. Yes, morality IS subjective, but would any reasonable person not only accept, but CONDONE these things? The answer should be no. No set of moral standards simply means that you decide what is right and wrong, and with most people being the reasonable, compassionate agnostics and atheists society refuses to acknowledge, you'll find that your beliefs are very similar. Setting your own principles is no different than what the barbaric primitives who wrote sacred texts did. The only difference is that more reasonable people are deciding what is acceptable and what is not.
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Old 04-28-2014, 08:53 PM
 
45 posts, read 34,732 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
All that is required for morality to exist is a desire for civilization, no deity is necessary at all. I'm confident that you have the same abilities to distinguish civilized from uncivilized behavior as the rest of us, so you may indeed be a moral person without reference to any religious concerns.

Morality predates religion, it must. Without some pre-existing understandings among people regarding how they will treat one another, it would be impossible to form a collective religion, wouldn't it? Morality is forged first, later it gets assigned to the will of whatever god happens to prevail at the moment in that region.

Do you think this atheist forum is composed of outlaws and folks who spit on fairness, compassion and sacrifice?

With or without religion, we have always crafted own standards of morality, all that will change is your recognition that this is the case.

If you were to satisfy yourself that there is no deity with a moral program for us all, would you then launch a crime wave? Would you start treating everyone with contempt? Would you become insufferably selfish?

Or would you continue to behave pretty much the way you always have?
I have often wondered if I would launch a crime wave after becoming an atheist or agnostic. Most likely not. But not from a sense of morality but from a fear if getting caught. There might be some minor law breaking if the fear if being caught didn't exist. Does that make me a bad person? And what would give any body else the right to call me one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBeam33 View Post
While I understand where you're coming from, you do understand that there is a difference between God and religion, right? And that you can have God without religion too.
I know there are people who believe that. I believe many organized religions are nothing more than elaborate scams. So you can certainly have "religion" without God. I haven't given much thought to the idea of having God without religion. I guess one would have to define what religion is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A.F.2. View Post
I consider moral arguments to be quite effective as well since everyone can relate.

For example, is the death penalty a reasonable punishment for homosexuality, an arbitrary and inherent qualification? I think that if the only Biblical sin someone ever committed was homosexuality, the fact that God would find that as reason to burn them in hell forever after commanding his people to kill them is sociopathic considering (if he existed) he created them with homosexual desires. Why would a God establish an unachievable moral standard and send everyone to hell because he created them incapable to follow it? Why would God create a universe billions of light-years across and care about how a few primates on an essentially irrelevant planet have sex? Why does God allow rape, murder, and slavery if he is all-good and possesses the ability to prevent it effortlessly? You'll soon find out that YOU are more moral than your God, and that's okay!
I understand where your coming from however in my mind moral arguments are no different than emotional arguments. Both are subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A.F.2. View Post
I had this misconception for a while too. The fact is, the Bible supports slavery, manslaughter, and genocide, some of the most unspeakable acts of modern society, so its relevance to what is right and wrong is virtually useless. Yes, morality IS subjective, but would any reasonable person not only accept, but CONDONE these things? The answer should be no. No set of moral standards simply means that you decide what is right and wrong, and with most people being the reasonable, compassionate agnostics and atheists society refuses to acknowledge, you'll find that your beliefs are very similar. Setting your own principles is no different than what the barbaric primitives who wrote sacred texts did. The only difference is that more reasonable people are deciding what is acceptable and what is not.
Or is it the person carrying the biggest stick?
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Old 04-28-2014, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,000 posts, read 18,578,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakfish View Post
I have often wondered if I would launch a crime wave after becoming an atheist or agnostic. Most likely not. But not from a sense of morality but from a fear if getting caught. There might be some minor law breaking if the fear if being caught didn't exist. Does that make me a bad person? And what would give any body else the right to call me one?
How do you define "minor?"

Try this hypothetical. Suppose you were in a position to easily save the life of someone who you disliked a great deal. I do not mean a person who has wronged you horribly, just someone in your life who you find very annoying or obnoxious. Further, if you do nothing and this person dies as a consequence, no one but you will even know that you were ever in a position to prevent the death.

In this hypothetical there is no god, no religion, no fear of punishment by any authority, just you and your conscience.

Do you save this person or not?
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Old 04-28-2014, 09:35 PM
 
12,540 posts, read 12,531,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakfish View Post
Once you come to the conclusion that there is no God you make yourself the standard of morality. Once you do that, anything goes and there is no longer any right or wrong. That is the scary part.
No, it's not "anything goes and there is no longer any right or wrong."

Come on, now. Think about what you are saying for a minute, because you are implying that atheists have no ethics. What, do you think we all run around holding up banks and murdering people who tick us off in traffic?

You don't need a deity to know right from wrong.
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Old 04-28-2014, 09:37 PM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
3,067 posts, read 2,109,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110 View Post
No, it's not "anything goes and there is no longer any right or wrong."

Think about what you are saying for a minute, because you are implying that atheists have no moral code or ethics. What, do you think we all run around holding up banks and murdering people who tick us off in traffic?

Come on, now. You don't need a deity to know right from wrong.
He is right, and given your admission of purposelessness, I don't see why you're contesting this
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Old 04-28-2014, 09:43 PM
 
12,540 posts, read 12,531,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
He is right, and given your admission of purposelessness, I don't see why you're contesting this
My life is not purposeless. I give it meaning. That's what any self-actualized person does.

Are you here to proselytize? That is neither welcome nor allowed.

Suffice it to say that no, people do not need gods to know right from wrong. Everything you need to know, you learned in kindergarten: Be nice to people and animals, share, take care of the planet for future generations, help those in need, and leave the world a better place than you found it. No gods required.

I posit that those who need some kind of reward beyond the satisfaction of doing what is right for the sake of doing right are not fully developed, and those who need to fear punishment from a spirit in the sky to do what is right are inherently intellectually and emotionally defective.
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Old 04-28-2014, 09:46 PM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
3,067 posts, read 2,109,405 times
Reputation: 3965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110 View Post
My life is not purposeless. I give it meaning. That's what any self-actualized person does.

Are you here to proselytize? That is neither welcome nor allowed.

Suffice it to say that no, people do not need gods to know right from wrong. Everything you need to know, you learned in kindergarten: Be nice to people and animals, share, take care of the planet for future generations, help those in need, and leave the world a better place than you found it. No gods required.

I posit that those who need some kind of reward beyond the satisfaction of doing what is right for the sake of doing right are not fully developed, and those who need to fear punishment from a spirit in the sky to do what is right are inherently defective.
Have you read any of my other posts? Just saying what he's ultimately saying, which is that morality is arbitrary. I have no duty to this planet or any other occupant of it. Any duty that is observed is the result of an arbitrary social contract which can be amended or disbanded at any time. Ideally, I occupy the planet with a bunch of other enlightened people who recognize our shared plight and act accordingly, with a distinct sense of the tragic and empathy that emanates from that shared sense of what life is. Barring that, anything goes. And believe me, I've met a literal handful of people who can truly identify with that worldview, none of which was learned in kindergarten.

Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 04-28-2014 at 09:55 PM..
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