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Old 05-01-2014, 02:44 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,323,385 times
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The absence of god is reflected in the bottom pic...

Here, let me lift the carpet of inconvenience for you to sweep this under... _^_
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,130 posts, read 18,599,788 times
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I think that if atheism is to spread and perhaps one day represent the majority view, it will be the result of increased education and persuading people to adopt rationality over superstition. I don't think it will be the result of a propaganda approach designed to portray the religious as collective hypocrites.

The above probably has an application to some, there are others who oppose gay marriage while simultaneously contributing to charitable causes, and there are plenty who are both tolerant and charitable.

Finally, the presence or absence of a god is not, as your caption suggests, reflected by the picture or situation. That there is good stuff does not prove a benevolent deity, that there is tragedy and suffering does not prove the lack of a deity.

I'm an atheist, so this isn't a matter of me taking personal offense, I just don't think this approach helps the cause. I think it just insults the religious in exchange for nothing gained.
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,094,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I just don't think this approach helps the cause. I think it just insults the religious in exchange for nothing gained.
Yes and no.

I don't think the claim here is that all religious people are 100% hypocritical 100% of the time. It think the claim is that they don't think about the inconsistency, illogic and, yes, hypocrisy of devoting so much time, money and energy to controlling the personal lives of other people around what holes they put things in, versus the relative lack of sleepless hand-wringing about actual harm and suffering. As long as Seeker continues to refrain from suggesting that all believers are pure heartless bastards, I think he makes a very valid point that can and should give pause and provoke thoughtful consideration by theists of how they determine their priorities. It is definitely true that the amount of resources that go into meddling in the personal lives of others and the invention of harms where none exist, highlights that something is very, very wrong with the thinking that produces those priorities.
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,130 posts, read 18,599,788 times
Reputation: 18731
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Yes and no.

I don't think the claim here is that all religious people are 100% hypocritical 100% of the time. It think the claim is that they don't think about the inconsistency, illogic and, yes, hypocrisy of devoting so much time, money and energy to controlling the personal lives of other people around what holes they put things in, versus the relative lack of sleepless hand-wringing about actual harm and suffering. As long as Seeker continues to refrain from suggesting that all believers are pure heartless bastards, I think he makes a very valid point that can and should give pause and provoke thoughtful consideration by theists of how they determine their priorities. It is definitely true that the amount of resources that go into meddling in the personal lives of others and the invention of harms where none exist, highlights that something is very, very wrong with the thinking that produces those priorities.
What matters is the impact and the impact will be the insulting of those religious people who do not represent the fundamentalist beliefs which are being targeted. Even if the claim isn't 100% of the religious are this way, that is still how it will be perceived. What will be the impact on the fundamentalists who are being justly satirized? No impact whatsoever. If you are the sort who believes that the creator of the universe wants you to hate homosexuals, you are already far outside the realm of rationality and no reasonable appeal is going to work.

Further, it is annoying to me to be associated with a cause which employs such bogus thinking. There isn't any actual relationship between gay marriage in the US and the starvation of children in the third world. It isn't as though someone was just about to send a fat check to famine relief, but instead was talked into investing that money in a campaign to oppose gay marriage. Are we supposed to conclude that anti gay donations are always in lieu of donations designed to relieve poverty?

It would be like criticizing a Green party member who has donated money to save sea otters or as patch of forest somewhere. Would it be fair for me to run an ad which depicted side by side photographs of sea otters and starving children with a caption which suggests that the money which could have saved the children was instead given to otters?

My feeling is that presenting the sort of propaganda which Seeker has contributed here isn't about changing anything or making great points, it is about the person making the points feeling superior. If you wish to change someone's mind, insulting them is not the way to start.
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Sarasota, FL
1,714 posts, read 1,924,267 times
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If people donated to good causes rather than paying dues to their church, that would change the world for the very-much-better.
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Old 05-01-2014, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,130 posts, read 18,599,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beninfl View Post
If people donated to good causes rather than paying dues to their church, that would change the world for the very-much-better.
I'm thinking that this is the wrong area in which to base attacks against religion. Religion does represent a fairly large percentage of all charitable works. It sponsors hospitals, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, orphanages, schools in primitive locations etc. This is one of the strengths of religion, they do pay attention to the needy. Maybe they misdirect some of what they could be giving into less positive activities, but that does not negate the charity that they do perform.

I used to have a contemptuous attitude toward the concept of a charity ball. It was people spending a grotesque amount of money in order to raise money for some worthy cause. The Saint Sam Hospital Annual Charity Ball might raise 75,000 for charity, but they might have also spent 25 thousand dollars on the lavish ball. I would wonder...."Why didn't the participants just give 100 grand to the charity? Why did they need a fancy dinner and door prizes and so forth?"

Then at some point it struck me, all while I was criticizing the waste involved in their raising 75 k for charity, I was raising zero dollars for charity. The realization made me feel stupid and since that time, I do not criticize any act of kindness in whatever form it materializes.
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:15 PM
 
322 posts, read 677,422 times
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The Catholic hospitals in the state of Washington are stepping on the rights of people while they "help" them. When you become a patient there, you aren't told that a bishop controls your treatment in cases where a woman's life is at risk with an ectopic pregnancy. They won't allow a simple drug to be given to a woman with an ectopic pregnancy. They won't allow vascectomies for men, or tubal ligations for women.

Sure, religious institutions "help" people, but only under the guise of control. Their main goal is to convert you.
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Sarasota, FL
1,714 posts, read 1,924,267 times
Reputation: 1023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I'm thinking that this is the wrong area in which to base attacks against religion. Religion does represent a fairly large percentage of all charitable works. It sponsors hospitals, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, orphanages, schools in primitive locations etc. This is one of the strengths of religion, they do pay attention to the needy. Maybe they misdirect some of what they could be giving into less positive activities, but that does not negate the charity that they do perform.

I used to have a contemptuous attitude toward the concept of a charity ball. It was people spending a grotesque amount of money in order to raise money for some worthy cause. The Saint Sam Hospital Annual Charity Ball might raise 75,000 for charity, but they might have also spent 25 thousand dollars on the lavish ball. I would wonder...."Why didn't the participants just give 100 grand to the charity? Why did they need a fancy dinner and door prizes and so forth?"

Then at some point it struck me, all while I was criticizing the waste involved in their raising 75 k for charity, I was raising zero dollars for charity. The realization made me feel stupid and since that time, I do not criticize any act of kindness in whatever form it materializes.
I understand. But my post still remains my opinion. People donate to the church. The church pays all of their staff, their building costs, fees, dues, and then pays some to charities who also pay their staff, advertising, rent, electric, dues.

Why not just cut out the middleman and give more of that dollar to the *actual* cause?
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
16,293 posts, read 7,669,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
What matters is the impact and the impact will be the insulting of those religious people who do not represent the fundamentalist beliefs which are being targeted. .
I am a Christian who does not represent the fundamentalist beliefs being targeted and I wholeheartedly support the sentiments expressed in the pictures presented. Priorities are really important and I don't feel insulted in the least. I appreciate your concern but the message is good.
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,130 posts, read 18,599,788 times
Reputation: 18731
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
I am a Christian who does not represent the fundamentalist beliefs being targeted and I wholeheartedly support the sentiments expressed in the pictures presented. Priorities are really important and I don't feel insulted in the least. I appreciate your concern but the message is good.
Was the message effective? You correctly note that it was not directed at you, so your reaction cannot be the criteria.

At whom do you believe the message was directed? Do you think it will have a positive or negative impact on those people?
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