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Old 05-25-2014, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Northern NJ/Amagansett, NY
11,018 posts, read 10,216,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
As an atheist, I don't believe telling a kid "God is real" is conducive to letting them make up their own minds, either. The difference is, as atheists, we're the ones talking about giving them a choice - Christians aren't. So we should practice what we preach (no offense to the OP, especially if I'm simply misreading/misinterpreting what they typed.
Fair enough. I have the opposite view. I think parents should raise their children with whatever belief system they wish. Not indoctrination, but give them something to start with and they will eventually find their own way.
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Old 05-25-2014, 06:58 PM
 
Location: TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
Fair enough. I have the opposite view. I think parents should raise their children with whatever belief system they wish. Not indoctrination, but give them something to start with and they will eventually find their own way.
That's fine. But what "something"? My only point is that I don't think any of us can look down on Christians for indoctrinating their kids if we're going to tell our own "There's no God" at any point whatsoever. Just because we have a thinner textbook doesn't mean we can't also indoctrinate our kids.

Idk. Food for thought.
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:19 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Never say never, but I hope I never tell my son point blank "God is not real" because, well, I do not know that.
Pedantically we do not "know" anything therefore. Science for example tells us we do not and never do know anything 100%. We simply speak the language of truth when the evidence, or lack of it, overwhelmingly compels us to do so.

Your post sounds to me like, for example, saying "I hope I never tell my son point blank that "The speed of light in a vacuum never changes" because, well, I do not know that.

The fact is EVERY bit of evidence we have available to us suggests that this is a truth. But we do not "know" it. Yet we present it in the language of fact to our children because everything we currently know supports the notion that it is true.

Similarly we have no reason whatsoever.... even a little bit.... to think there is a god. Of course, as you say, we do not "know" this to be a fact.... but unlike you I have no issue with speaking in the language and tone of fact when presenting something I have good reason to think is so. I can not 100% "know" there is no god but I have no qualms about using the sentence "There is no god" based on my current observation of the universe and the data made available to me within it. In the same way as I will tell my kid with confidence "There are no monsters living under your bed". Can I "know" this to be true? Clearly not but.... here is the important part.... I can speak to this claim with __Exactly__ the same confidence as I can speak to the "There is no god" sentence because the substantiation for god and monsters under my kids bed is EXACTLY the same. That is to say: None. Zero. Nadda. Nichts. Feck all. Nothing. Squat.

I am happy to unpack and qualify exactly what I mean by saying that when asked as people well know however.
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Old 05-26-2014, 06:28 AM
 
Location: TX
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I've been posting and reading on these boards for years now, never once seen objective evidence (or even solid reasoning) to suggest there is no god of some kind out there/here. That's because nothing can be counted as objective evidence for/against the question. Most that's graced my computer screen is evidence that the Christian God isn't real, or at least that events didn't occur as described in the bible.

Therefore, I don't equate "There is no God" with anything that science has actually found facts to support.

Therefore, I don't plan on telling my son "There is no god".
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Old 05-27-2014, 12:53 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I've been posting and reading on these boards for years now, never once seen objective evidence (or even solid reasoning) to suggest there is no god of some kind out there/here.
Were you replying to me here? If so you might need to re-read my post because you have managed to miss the point.
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Old 05-27-2014, 06:35 AM
 
Location: TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Were you replying to me here? If so you might need to re-read my post because you have managed to miss the point.
Yes, I was. And no, I didn't miss the point. Did you miss mine?

Since even objective evidence that there isn't a god doesn't seem to exist, I don't see why a parent would make the leap into telling their kid "There is no god". Just tell them you don't see any reason to think so, but maybe.

I want to reiterate. I am an atheist. I most certainly will tell my child that I do not believe there is a god. I will tell him I don't see any evidence of there being a god. However, I will not try to make it sound as if this lack of belief is grounded in anything but my own mind.

As for when my son asks if there's a monster under his bed, he and I will look under the bed together and then I will say "Did you see a monster?... Alright, so there is no reason to think there's one there." I'm raising a critical thinker. If I tell him, "No, there's no monster", he may very well ask "How do you know he's not invisible!?"

And then I will go into a "This is harmful to you (by keeping you from sleeping), so let's not choose to believe in something when that belief is hurting you" sort of argument, same as I will do if my son becomes religious and it causes him unnecessary grief/hardship.
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:05 PM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Yes, I was. And no, I didn't miss the point. Did you miss mine?
Yes you did. No I did not. Because my point had nothing... read it again... nothing... to do with "objective evidence (or even solid reasoning) to suggest there is no god of some kind"

Read it one more time. If you still do not get it I am happy to rephrase/restructure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Since even objective evidence that there isn't a god doesn't seem to exist, I don't see why a parent would make the leap into telling their kid "There is no god". Just tell them you don't see any reason to think so, but maybe.
Since even objective evidence that there isn't a monster under their bed doesn't seem to exist, I don't see why a parent would make the leap into telling their kid "There is no monster under their bed". Just tell them you don't see any reason to think so, but maybe.

I would like to see how your kid sleeps on that floundering "maybe". Yet somehow since the time of my last post there has been NOT ONE person who can tell me the difference between telling a kid there is no monster under the bed.... and telling them there is no god.

Yet the evidence both for and against is exactly equal.

You want to reiterate you are an atheist? Great! We are on the same side there. But you are tinged with a bias that you do not even seem to see yourself. A bias that lets you go through life saying "There is no monsters under the bed" as being a judgement call on the evidence available......... but then you feel compelled to say "I do not know there is no god" under not just similar evidence.... but exactly the same evidence.

It is a cultural bias. And it is hard to shake off. But the infection point and symptoms are there if you choose to look.

It reminds me of the old dave allen sketch where he first met a nun. And He asked the nun where god is and the nun replied "god is HERE!". And Dave allen looked around and said..... "What..... he is hiding under the stairs?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:44 PM
 
40,144 posts, read 26,779,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Since even objective evidence that there isn't a god doesn't seem to exist, I don't see why a parent would make the leap into telling their kid "There is no god". Just tell them you don't see any reason to think so, but maybe.
I want to reiterate. I am an atheist. I most certainly will tell my child that I do not believe there is a god. I will tell him I don't see any evidence of there being a god. However, I will not try to make it sound as if this lack of belief is grounded in anything but my own mind.
As for when my son asks if there's a monster under his bed, he and I will look under the bed together and then I will say "Did you see a monster?... Alright, so there is no reason to think there's one there." I'm raising a critical thinker. If I tell him, "No, there's no monster", he may very well ask "How do you know he's not invisible!?"
And then I will go into a "This is harmful to you (by keeping you from sleeping), so let's not choose to believe in something when that belief is hurting you" sort of argument, same as I will do if my son becomes religious and it causes him unnecessary grief/hardship.
I agree. There is no logical or scientific basis for a lack of belief in God. Since "we do not know" what this reality IS . . . the explanation we accept for it is entirely a matter of preference. All we know is that "It just is" . . . but its attributes are ubiquitous and powerful enough that a BELIEF in God is not unwarranted. Beliefs . . . being that category of unverified or unverifiable things . . . for those who are comfortable with "we do not know" a lack of belief in God is acceptable as well.
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Old 05-27-2014, 05:45 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,245,374 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Since even objective evidence that there isn't a monster under their bed doesn't seem to exist, I don't see why a parent would make the leap into telling their kid "There is no monster under their bed". Just tell them you don't see any reason to think so, but maybe.

I would like to see how your kid sleeps on that floundering "maybe". Yet somehow since the time of my last post there has been NOT ONE person who can tell me the difference between telling a kid there is no monster under the bed.... and telling them there is no god.
Well I happen to be a parent first, Nazi of consistency second. Therefore, my answer to your question is, "Telling a kid there's no monster under the bed will ease his frightful mind so he can hopefully get a good night's sleep. Telling him there's no god is just pushing your own preferences onto a kid who is likely to be perfectly fine choosing their own... that is if their parents (theist and atheist alike) do not try and make them feel inferior, stupid, doomed, guilty, ashamed, etc. about it."
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Old 05-30-2014, 01:04 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
"Telling a kid there's no monster under the bed will ease his frightful mind so he can hopefully get a good night's sleep. Telling him there's no god is just pushing your own preferences onto a kid who is likely to be perfectly fine choosing their own
By your watery standards, telling them there is no monster under the bed is no less "pushing your preference onto a kid" than telling them there is no god. You just distinguish between the two by giving a motivation for the former which you feel justifies it.

Which is exactly the bias I was referring to in my previous post. You are doing the SAME THING in both cases, but you use personal justification of your own motivations to validate one and not the other, and make them "different" in your mind when they are in fact the _exact same thing_ performed from the _exact same premises_.
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