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Old 05-31-2014, 08:14 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,249,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
::Sigh:: There is every reason to doubt the myriad attributes that we humans have given to God throughout our history . . . many if not most exceed reason and reflect more about human hubris than anything else . . . like the Omni's. But . . . none of this has anything to do with the fundamental question of the existence of God.
But take away the attributes of God that are questionable, like will, mind, love, ominipotence, omniscience, sentience, consciousness, and you are left with, at best, "god" as a work for observable reality for which we already have perfectly good terms. Why use one with all the questionable baggage, when Nature or reality will do nicely?

Let's be clear, the version of God you claim unquestionably exists is not the same God you actually believe in. You take observable reality and add to it theories of distributed consciousness, "agape love", and a host of other concepts that have no evidence. This conglomeration is what you actually label God, not simply what is observable... You like to use the same word for two distinct ideas, so you can easily conflate the two.

We are all very aware of the shell game you are playing, and have not lost sight of which cup the pea is under, no matter how wildly you try to move them...

-NoCapo
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Old 06-01-2014, 12:28 AM
 
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my son is four now and his mother and myself have already told him god is a story no more and and makes some people feel good to think he is real real. and that they are people who use this story to hate others.
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Old 06-01-2014, 03:09 AM
 
Location: USA
3,429 posts, read 1,257,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WSPHXPELON View Post
My son is 5 years old. Ever since he was born I have been asking myself how I am going to educate him in regard to religion...My wife's side of the family are fairly Catholic. My mother-in-law had my son baptized when he was a baby (I did not protest). Well, I had finally decided that what I would tell my son regarding "God" would be that I would just avoid the subject and/or "play it off" like I was a believer when the subject came up...

Well, today, for the first time ever, my son started asking me questions about God. I just couldn't make myself betray my son by feeding him lies. I told him the truth, that God, "is not real"; and I explained that some people believe very strongly that God does exist but that my personal belief which I feel to be true is that God does not exist.

Well, he was okay with it. He said, "Okay, God isn't real. Only Santa Claus is real and he is the one that takes care of us, right?" So, I had already broken the news to him about God (the big lie), so I broke the news to him about Santa Claus as well. I told him that Santa Claus is not real either and that the presents are from me and my wife. I told him that the only people that will "take care of us", are us; and that is why we must be good people and value and appreciate each other and our families. He seemed very understanding and none of it seemed to upset him the slightest.

Long story short, did I just mess up?? Should I have let the facade carried on for years??

What do you think? How have you handled raising children being an Atheist? Please just share some thoughts on this topic because it has really been bothering me....
Did you mess up? My own two now 30 something children were never raised to believe that there was a God in the first place. And they have turned out really well, both very stable and well grounded people. Telling your son that God and Santa are make believe is simply the beginning of a process of encouraging him to begin to examine and question the things that he is told, and to think for himself. And that is perfectly healthy. As opposed filling his head with stories of devils and demons and being inherently wicked and born into sin. Which is the path to mental illness.
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Old 06-01-2014, 06:45 AM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,237,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pendleton42 View Post
my son is four now and his mother and myself have already told him god is a story no more and and makes some people feel good to think he is real real. and that they are people who use this story to hate others.
You and mom should revise your lesson. Not all theists (probably not even most, considering that Christians, Jews, and Muslims do not have a monopoly on theism) use their belief in god to justify hatred/intolerance. I think you are doing your child a disservice by giving him a warped view of what theism is, in and of itself.

Advanced lesson: Not all Christians or Muslims believe that people should be punished on earth for being "sinners". There are plenty, for example, who stand for gay rights. Heck, there are even Christians who argue that there is no such thing as Hell (so punishment for being gay in the afterlife either).
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:26 AM
 
122 posts, read 79,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Truth relative to what on the best evidence we can conclude about the god - question and the reality of existence.

The parameters have been done to death. Quite apart from religion, because they all seem to disagree about which god we are talking about, the presence of a god here with us seems unsupported by the facts. Efforts to ascribe this lucky or unlucky occurrence to the hand of god don't reasonably stand up and smack of self -ceceptyion and wishful thinking. Note Ray Comfort's asinine and reprehensibly opportunistic explanation of the Philippines storm and flood as sonething God had done to let us know he was around.

The evidence (argued at length here on the boards) does not support the existence of a god, no matter how the believers may wriggle, excuse and deny.

If logic and evidence counts for anything there is very good reason to suppose there is no god in the way we use the term in the normal way.

So if and when a kid of five or six asks whether there is a god or not, 'No' is as justified to the same question about fairies or leprechauns. That we don't have a self -serving organization dedicated to propping up belief in fairies or leprechauns is irrelevant.

I would prefer to assume the kid is smart enough to understand the reservation of 'I don't see any good reason to believe in a god', but 'No' will do fine.


If 'No' will do just fine - it's a rule.

There is no god junior. ( you are not allowed to consider or wonder about the idea ,

Why ? because I just told you there is no god, if this comes up again there will be consequence's.

Exercising control over the freedom and thought of other's, authoritarian, autocratic, is a definition connected to communism.

Last edited by Drew K; 06-01-2014 at 08:30 AM..
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Old 06-01-2014, 09:23 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,249,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew K View Post
If 'No' will do just fine - it's a rule.

There is no god junior. ( you are not allowed to consider or wonder about the idea ,

Why ? because I just told you there is no god, if this comes up again there will be consequence's.

Exercising control over the freedom and thought of other's, authoritarian, autocratic, is a definition connected to communism.
What!?!?

I am sorry, that is just ridiculous! Giving a short, concise answer to a question is not intrinsically authoritarian. In everyarea of education from manners, to language, to math and science, the same progression hold true. You start with simple, general answers that broadly cover the issue, and as the student becomes more aware and asks harder questoins you modify the answers. For a two year old, you say "Don't hit!", for a five year old maybe you explain in terms of reciprocity, "Would you want someone to hit you? Then don't hit." From there you can discuss the ethics of violence in increasingly more nuanced terms as the learner matures. You don't hit a two year old with a discussion of the ethics of violence, you give them a simplified version. As they mature they will grow past it, and learn to ask better questions.

This is simple pedagogy and applies to every area of life. We teach children that parallel lines do not intersect and wait until much later in life to discuss non-Euclidean geometry. When they are young, there is nothing wrong with a simple, "No, god is probably not real". As they mature they will be able to handle epistemology, but you have to go slow...

-NoCapo
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Old 06-01-2014, 09:30 AM
 
39,039 posts, read 10,831,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew K View Post
If 'No' will do just fine - it's a rule.

There is no god junior. ( you are not allowed to consider or wonder about the idea ,

Why ? because I just told you there is no god, if this comes up again there will be consequence's.

Exercising control over the freedom and thought of other's, authoritarian, autocratic, is a definition connected to communism.

I have to agree with Capo. 'No' will do fine for a 5 year old, but, if you were hoping to show that Authoritarian atheism thus refused all debate and discussion, you are either failing to read my post or are choosing to misrepresent it in a manner quite familiar in Christian polemics.

The long answer 'There is no good reason for me to believe in a god' is still there. And, if the kid presses the matter then or later or at any time, we will be willing to explain at length.

That didn't come close to working.
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Old 06-01-2014, 09:49 AM
 
122 posts, read 79,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
What!?!?

I am sorry, that is just ridiculous! Giving a short, concise answer to a question is not intrinsically authoritarian. In everyarea of education from manners, to language, to math and science, the same progression hold true. You start with simple, general answers that broadly cover the issue, and as the student becomes more aware and asks harder questoins you modify the answers. For a two year old, you say "Don't hit!", for a five year old maybe you explain in terms of reciprocity, "Would you want someone to hit you? Then don't hit." From there you can discuss the ethics of violence in increasingly more nuanced terms as the learner matures. You don't hit a two year old with a discussion of the ethics of violence, you give them a simplified version. As they mature they will grow past it, and learn to ask better questions.

This is simple pedagogy and applies to every area of life. We teach children that parallel lines do not intersect and wait until much later in life to discuss non-Euclidean geometry. When they are young, there is nothing wrong with a simple, "No, god is probably not real". As they mature they will be able to handle epistemology, but you have to go slow...

-NoCapo
Oh I donno,

The parent is the source of authority in the household. It has been ruled there is no god.

Little kids need & pursue praise from the parent, raising the issue again would be a direct act of dis-obedience.

We would need for the argument to show how raising the topic again on behalf of the little kid, could be connected to a potential for praise.

The exploring has been shut down by an aggressor.

Last edited by Drew K; 06-01-2014 at 10:07 AM..
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:03 AM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,249,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew K View Post
Oh I donno,

The parent is the source of authority in the household. It has been ruled there is no god.

Little kids need & pursue praise from the parent, raising the issue again would be a direct act of dis-obedience.

We would need for the argument to show how raising the topic again on behalf of the little kid, could be connected to a potential for praise. The exploration in the topic has been shut down by the adult aggressor.
So you don't believe in parenting. Parenting is all about giving simplified answers until such time as the child is ready to learn more. When a child is young you paint with a broad brush. You tell them sky is blue (even though it isn't), that cats say meow (even though they don't). As they grow and learn, you give them opportunities to ask more questions. You explain in more detail, with more nuance.

The alternative is to give complete answers( which is virtually impossible, since much of what we "know" as adults is still an approximation or something that is not entirely true) or no answers. Neither of these are feasible, so you start with first order approximations, and reveal more detail as they are ready for it...

I do agree that care should be taken to not stifle their desire to learn, but that has to be balanced with their ability to understand.

-NoCapo
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:48 AM
 
40,046 posts, read 26,730,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew K View Post
Oh I donno,
The parent is the source of authority in the household. It has been ruled there is no god.
Little kids need & pursue praise from the parent, raising the issue again would be a direct act of dis-obedience.
We would need for the argument to show how raising the topic again on behalf of the little kid, could be connected to a potential for praise.
The exploring has been shut down by an aggressor.
Well said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
So you don't believe in parenting. Parenting is all about giving simplified answers until such time as the child is ready to learn more. When a child is young you paint with a broad brush. You tell them sky is blue (even though it isn't), that cats say meow (even though they don't). As they grow and learn, you give them opportunities to ask more questions. You explain in more detail, with more nuance.
The alternative is to give complete answers( which is virtually impossible, since much of what we "know" as adults is still an approximation or something that is not entirely true) or no answers. Neither of these are feasible, so you start with first order approximations, and reveal more detail as they are ready for it...
I do agree that care should be taken to not stifle their desire to learn, but that has to be balanced with their ability to understand.
-NoCapo
Self-justified nonsense. The proper answer is "I don't know" . . . because you don't. You don't get to pretend your preferences are absolute facts . . . as implied by the unequivocal "No."
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