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Old 06-04-2014, 04:01 PM
 
59 posts, read 59,828 times
Reputation: 90

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Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
Yes there is. The logical basis for a lack of belief in somethings follows naturally from the lack of any reason to believe it. You tell us over and over you think there is a god. You have not once - ever - given a basis for such a belief except that you felt it was so one day while dreaming.
I could give you very precise evidence for a belief in a created world :a world of order,a world so finely tuned ,but when you have to teach someone who cannot ,will not 'see' ,what does one do ?
It's a complete waste of energy for me to explain to a stone deaf person what music sounds like,so I don't try. I prefer to help those who can at least hear :help them to hear or play the music at a higher level.
So someone who is listening to music and describes it to a completely deaf person is wasting their time.
Especially if the person has not even tried to read music either .
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Old 06-04-2014, 04:08 PM
 
59 posts, read 59,828 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
I think we are born "God dumb". Religion is learned. I do think human beings have a tendency to anthropomorphize and to try to attribute motive or agency, to the world around us, but the leap from that to "god" is in my opinion a learned, cultural thing.

-NoCapo
I wonder how much you have studied history,and the conséquences of non belief in God over time .
Just as some are born with a capacity to sing or dance or other talents,some are born with the 'god' thing
as you call it. Without some of the 'god thing ' ,you will have not much going for you in the long run .
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Old 06-04-2014, 04:21 PM
 
3,404 posts, read 2,253,561 times
Reputation: 1317
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarieTherese View Post
I wonder how much you have studied history,and the conséquences of non belief in God over time .
Just as some are born with a capacity to sing or dance or other talents,some are born with the 'god' thing
as you call it. Without some of the 'god thing ' ,you will have not much going for you in the long run .
Let me stop you there, I don't think anyone is born with a "god" thing. All of us have the tendencies to anthropomorphize or attribute agency in varying degrees. It is simply part of being human. I don't think there are any inherent consequences to a lack of god-belief, any more than there are inherent consequences for an incorrect god-belief. Personally speaking, my life has improved since I left the faith, but that is mostly due to my good fortune to live in a country that protects me from the primary consequence of unbelief, believers.

The most noticeable consequence of non-belief through out history, across virtually every culture, language and religion is the danger that believers will enslave, torture or kill you for being different. Israelites committing genocide and systemically raping an entire generation of women, Canaanites sacrificing children to Moloch,Aztecs sacrificing defeated enemies, Muslims slaughtering Hindus, Hindu's killing Christians and Buddhists, the Catholics killing Protestants, Protestants killing Protestants, the list is practically endless!

To be fair, this is not a religious thing exclusively. It too is part of being human, this otherizing of fellow humans in order to justify our own atrocities. But religion provides powerful leverage in the form of divine sanction, unspeakable rewards in an afterlife, and eternal damnation to legitimize atrocity.

-NoCapo
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Old 06-04-2014, 04:21 PM
 
59 posts, read 59,828 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Did you mess up? My own two now 30 something children were never raised to believe that there was a God in the first place. And they have turned out really well, both very stable and well grounded people. Telling your son that God and Santa are make believe is simply the beginning of a process of encouraging him to begin to examine and question the things that he is told, and to think for himself. And that is perfectly healthy. As opposed filling his head with stories of devils and demons and being inherently wicked and born into sin. Which is the path to mental illness.
It is funny to hear this .You must be American,the country with the bad concience,and it' terrible kiling power .
I saw a programme from the states where a woman literally was terrifying children and using Jesus to do so . An ignorant and disgraceful person,who would be in jail in europe.

It is a pity that would be your experience of religious education or developement,as it has nothing whatsoever to do with God, and is of the devil.

Why do I say 'bad concience':well Shakespeare said" bad concience doth make cowards of us all" .
While pretending to be a country of liberty etc; the US exports killing weaons,and anit democracy around the world ,and you killed the original inhabitants,so you have very little true faith in God among your christians ,just fear.
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Old 06-04-2014, 04:48 PM
 
59 posts, read 59,828 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Let me stop you there, I don't think anyone is born with a "god" thing. All of us have the tendencies to anthropomorphize or attribute agency in varying degrees. It is simply part of being human. I don't think there are any inherent consequences to a lack of god-belief, any more than there are inherent consequences for an incorrect god-belief. Personally speaking, my life has improved since I left the faith, but that is mostly due to my good fortune to live in a country that protects me from the primary consequence of unbelief, believers.

The most noticeable consequence of non-belief through out history, across virtually every culture, language and religion is the danger that believers will enslave, torture or kill you for being different. Israelites committing genocide and systemically raping an entire generation of women, Canaanites sacrificing children to Moloch,Aztecs sacrificing defeated enemies, Muslims slaughtering Hindus, Hindu's killing Christians and Buddhists, the Catholics killing Protestants, Protestants killing Protestants, the list is practically endless!

To be fair, this is not a religious thing exclusively. It too is part of being human, this otherizing of fellow humans in order to justify our own atrocities. But religion provides powerful leverage in the form of divine sanction, unspeakable rewards in an afterlife, and eternal damnation to legitimize atrocity.

-NoCapo
Well in europe religion is very demoded indeed,and it is the atheist who has reigned for 200 hundred plus years in France .Now, it is obvious that when the fruits of a more believing culture are used up atheism leaves nothing behind,nothing but 'deadness' ,without life. The greatest proponents like Sartre ,Beauvoir among others ,when you look at their work it is 'dead',where as V.Hugo ,Tolstoy and the classics which endure and have life, were believers .
The long term atheists are seeing the negative results themselves .France is a very Wise country .You must leave people to learn for themselves. Some are now seeking more in the religion department for answers ,instead of the philosophy political ones .
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Old 06-05-2014, 04:23 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
...
I do not need dictionary definitions from you thanks, especially when you misuse the words you copy and paste definitions of so willfully.

Again: There is no evidence difference between "There is no god" and "There is no monsters under your bed". They are both statements made in the light of the evidence available to you as to the existence of either. That is to say: None.

The two statements are the same. You simply declare one to be "common sense". Again elevating one over the other based on nothing but personal whim.

So that you see a difference between saying one to your child, and not the other, is as I said simply arbitrary and contrived. And likely stems from nothing more that social conditioning.

So if you want to stop hearing crickets then read what I have actually written instead of listening to crickets while ignoring what I wrote and pretending you need post numbers to read it again.

In summary: Given the evidence available to us, there is simply no difference between the statements "There is no god" and "There is no monsters under your bed". Any and all differences you have expressed between the two have simply dropped out of your own fantasy life.
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Old 06-05-2014, 04:31 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarieTherese View Post
Then your father was not a true 'believer'
Always comical when "believers" go around declaring the attributes of being a "True Believer (tm)" without ever providing a shred of basis for their declarations on the matter. The Christian Forum around here for example is a great source for laughs on this one where Christians go around telling other Christians on the forum that they are not "True Christian".

It seems that "True Beleiver" and "True Christian" at the end of the day are terms that reduce to little more than "Other people who agree with me".

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarieTherese View Post
I could give you very precise evidence for a belief in a created world :a world of order,a world so finely tuned ,but when you have to teach someone who cannot ,will not 'see' ,what does one do ?
Oh look another in the long.... long long long.... LONG..... line of Theistic posters on this forum who come in saying "I _could_ give you evidence but I will not because......".

Does religion class come with a module on "How to cop out of conversation" these days, or what is it churning you people out with these ready made dodges?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarieTherese View Post
It's a complete waste of energy for me to explain to a stone deaf person what music sounds like
We have an existing user on here who clings to this analogy too, like a dying and desperate man clinging to a rotting and slowly disintegrating piece of wood adrift at sea.

The problem with the analogy is clear however. Even if a deaf person can not hear music.... you can still evidence to them the existence of sound. Where YOU and your cohorts fail not just slightly.... but utterly and totally..... is that you can not evidence god exists. You simply declare it does and call people who do not agree with you "deaf" or "blind".

To throw your own analogy back at you: You are merely asserting the existence of music to the deaf person without ever showing such a thing exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarieTherese View Post
Without some of the 'god thing ' ,you will have not much going for you in the long run .
What a judgmental attitude you have from your high horse there. Simply assuming people will have "not much going on" if they are not god memeoids like yourself. Aside from asserting this in order to insult others, have you any actual basis whatsoever to suggest that the quality or enjoyment of life for the person uninfected with god belief is any different, let alone LOWER, than that for you and your imagined cohorts?
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Old 06-05-2014, 06:02 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,245,374 times
Reputation: 2619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I do not need dictionary definitions from you thanks, especially when you misuse the words you copy and paste definitions of so willfully.
I did no such thing. And I broke the definitions down for all to see to demonstrate how they do not apply to my choice to place my being a father (thinking of what will help my son/hurt my son/make no difference) over my being Mr. Technical (thinking only of what the evidence or lack thereof would justify me saying to my child).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Again: There is no evidence difference between "There is no god" and "There is no monsters under your bed". They are both statements made in the light of the evidence available to you as to the existence of either. That is to say: None.
No one's arguing this. I'm just saying this is not the be all and end all of contemplating what a parent should tell their kid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
The two statements are the same. You simply declare one to be "common sense". Again elevating one over the other based on nothing but personal whim.
Actually, I said that my decision to tell my son "There are no monsters under your bed" but refrain from announcing to him "There is no god!" is common sense, and I stand by that statement. Yes, I believe most parents would agree, and it wouldn't require much effort to understand why this is ideal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
So that you see a difference between saying one to your child, and not the other, is as I said simply arbitrary and contrived. And likely stems from nothing more that social conditioning.
I want my son to know that he is free to decide for himself, when it comes to the god question.
I also want him to sleep peacefully at night.

Call it what you will (I've addressed these labels in sufficient detail, I would think). I call it being a parent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
So if you want to stop hearing crickets then read what I have actually written instead of listening to crickets while ignoring what I wrote and pretending you need post numbers to read it again.
No one's pretending here. I asked for a post number because I honestly have no idea which post you are referring to. But if you just now summed up your argument, then you can save your energy in providing the post number and I'll save mine in reading it, because it's nothing to phone home about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
In summary: Given the evidence available to us, there is simply no difference between the statements "There is no god" and "There is no monsters under your bed". Any and all differences you have expressed between the two have simply dropped out of your own fantasy life.
Not true. One is likely to help my son sleep at night, and the other is likely to stifle his personal religious freedom. I enjoy poking fun at Christian fundamentalist parents who push religion on their children and other youth, too much to be a hypocrite and push atheism on my son.

Last edited by Vic 2.0; 06-05-2014 at 06:49 PM..
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Old 06-05-2014, 07:44 PM
 
16,105 posts, read 17,923,003 times
Reputation: 15897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Not true. One is likely to help my son sleep at night, and the other is likely to stifle his personal religious freedom. I enjoy poking fun at Christian fundamentalist parents who push religion on their children and other youth, too much to be a hypocrite and push atheism on my son.
Actually, both might help him sleep better given the Christian supposition that god is always watching for sins.
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Old 06-06-2014, 01:42 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
No one's arguing this. I'm just saying this is not the be all and end all of contemplating what a parent should tell their kid
And despite your misuse of words and your misreading of mine..... I never suggested otherwise either. I can think of lots of reasons to mediate on such decisions. I am just explaining why I find your particular reasons, in this particular context, on this particular subject to be arbitrary, contrived and useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Actually, I said that my decision to tell my son "There are no monsters under your bed" but refrain from announcing to him "There is no god!" is common sense
I think we have enough of people around here declaring their own position to be "default" or "common sense" without you adding to the pile. People do this as a knee jerk reaction when they have no actual points to make. The tactic goes: No argument or evidence for a position.... simply assert that the position is "common sense" and act like this makes your point for you. The same for imagining "most people would agree".

We can all type throw away lines like "My position is common sense" and "I believe most people agree with me". The problem with such lines is they say PRECISELY nothing and I would have thought you at least would know better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I want my son to know that he is free to decide for himself, when it comes to the god question. I also want him to sleep peacefully at night.
So he is free to decide for himself on the subjects YOU deem he is free to decide for himself on. The others you feel it is ok to assert your position as default. Again I see no difference between the two statements and your basis for deciding between them is, as I said, contrived, arbitrary and likely stems more from social conditioning than the ideals you are pretending to espouse.

As for wanting a child to sleep peacefully at night.... I have seen the idea there is a god, a hell, someone eternally watching and other such nonsense theist concepts as having the EXACT OPPOSITE effect and the potential for thinking there is a god is just as detrimental to the good nights sleep of some children as is the idea there is monsters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
because it's nothing to phone home about.
Peppering your post with such sniddery takes away from it, you, and your position. It does not add to it like you appear to think.
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