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Old 06-06-2014, 03:03 AM
 
3,637 posts, read 2,701,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarieTherese View Post
I could give you very precise evidence for a belief in a created world
K. Go on so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
From his point of view, I have pointed out that his hypothesis is clever but hypothetical
I have seen nothing "clever" in anything he has claimed. Perhaps I have missed something you can point out to me? All I have seen is that he claims to have "felt a presence" while asleep one day. And has ever since twisted scientific terms to make them sound like this "presence" he felt was "god".

What is "clever" there? That is not clever. It is lazy.
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Old 06-06-2014, 08:55 AM
 
39,217 posts, read 10,895,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
K. Go on so.



I have seen nothing "clever" in anything he has claimed. Perhaps I have missed something you can point out to me? All I have seen is that he claims to have "felt a presence" while asleep one day. And has ever since twisted scientific terms to make them sound like this "presence" he felt was "god".

What is "clever" there? That is not clever. It is lazy.
I find the whole Universal Consciousness Field ingenious and better worked out as an explanation for how God works than any others. Therefore I think it clever. I agree that it is is another example of beginning with faith (acquired the way he explained) and looking around for facts to support it. Thus I give it little credit, especially as so much of it seems to be hypothetical and speculative.

Nevertheless, so far as it goes, I think it is a clever pieve of work.
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Old 06-06-2014, 10:45 AM
 
16,720 posts, read 14,727,707 times
Reputation: 41134
Quote:
Originally Posted by WSPHXPELON View Post
My son is 5 years old. Ever since he was born I have been asking myself how I am going to educate him in regard to religion...My wife's side of the family are fairly Catholic. My mother-in-law had my son baptized when he was a baby (I did not protest). Well, I had finally decided that what I would tell my son regarding "God" would be that I would just avoid the subject and/or "play it off" like I was a believer when the subject came up...

Well, today, for the first time ever, my son started asking me questions about God. I just couldn't make myself betray my son by feeding him lies. I told him the truth, that God, "is not real"; and I explained that some people believe very strongly that God does exist but that my personal belief which I feel to be true is that God does not exist.

Well, he was okay with it. He said, "Okay, God isn't real. Only Santa Claus is real and he is the one that takes care of us, right?" So, I had already broken the news to him about God (the big lie), so I broke the news to him about Santa Claus as well. I told him that Santa Claus is not real either and that the presents are from me and my wife. I told him that the only people that will "take care of us", are us; and that is why we must be good people and value and appreciate each other and our families. He seemed very understanding and none of it seemed to upset him the slightest.

Long story short, did I just mess up?? Should I have let the facade carried on for years??

What do you think? How have you handled raising children being an Atheist? Please just share some thoughts on this topic because it has really been bothering me....
I think you're wrong for at least not letting him decide for himself when he grew up, since your wife is not an atheist or agnostic.

But to ruin Santa? That's just cruel.
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:29 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,245,374 times
Reputation: 2619
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Actually, both might help him sleep better given the Christian supposition that god is always watching for sins.
At best, this would be a practical reason to tell them "The Christian God is not real". But I don't even think that, really. Since Christians, IME, are more likely to talk of God as someone who protects, heals, etc. than someone who is watching for sins, I don't see why atheists can't refrain from pushing the other image of the Christian God. Now, understand that I am 100% for educating kids about the various religions and what they do/do not entail. However, I see no point in telling a five year old any of it, especially the most gruesome details of every religion (or just Christianity/Judaism). If one does not have an agenda, they should perhaps act like it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
And despite your misuse of words and your misreading of mine..... I never suggested otherwise either. I can think of lots of reasons to mediate on such decisions. I am just explaining why I find your particular reasons, in this particular context, on this particular subject to be arbitrary, contrived and useless.
Adding "useless" to the list, I see... What, right after I elaborated on their usefulness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I think we have enough of people around here declaring their own position to be "default" or "common sense" without you adding to the pile. People do this as a knee jerk reaction when they have no actual points to make. The tactic goes: No argument or evidence for a position.... simply assert that the position is "common sense" and act like this makes your point for you. The same for imagining "most people would agree".
You are being disingenuous, implying that most parents wouldn't agree "Telling a child there's no monster under his bed is okay, while telling him there is no god is not". Stepping on a child's right to choose what to believe (when we both know they could very well guess correctly!) is akin to a Christian fundamentalist parent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
...the ideals you are pretending to espouse.
Now you're gonna tell me whether I'm genuinely for religious freedom, even when the person is not yet an adult?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
As for wanting a child to sleep peacefully at night.... I have seen the idea there is a god, a hell, someone eternally watching and other such nonsense theist concepts as having the EXACT OPPOSITE effect and the potential for thinking there is a god is just as detrimental to the good nights sleep of some children as is the idea there is monsters.
And what of the belief in a god that doesn't punish or watch for reasons to judge you? Because that's the subject. Not hell, not punishment or judgment. Simply, a deity.

And before you go about justifying an announcement there is no Jehovah (Christian deity), know that not all Christians believe in hell either.

Last edited by Vic 2.0; 06-06-2014 at 06:42 PM..
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Old 06-09-2014, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Glasgow Scotland
15,265 posts, read 12,603,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSD610 View Post
If you seriously think that is a form of abuse you have never had any first hand experience with abuse or those who have actually been abused.
abuse comes in many forms..
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:52 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I find the whole Universal Consciousness Field ingenious and better worked out as an explanation for how God works than any others. Therefore I think it clever.
Ah right. In much the same way as a lot of Freudian thinking is "clever".

I am not sure clever or ingenious is really the correct word to really reach the full force of what you appear to be saying. Maybe "Highly imaginative" is more apt. "Clever" has other connotations which I am simply convinced do not really apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Adding "useless" to the list, I see... What, right after I elaborated on their usefulness?
I have not seen you show any utility in it at all really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
You are being disingenuous, implying that most parents wouldn't agree
Nope. I am pointing out that it is better to argue the merits of your position rather than invent people you imagine agree with you in some kind of fantasy "Argument ad populum" attempt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
"Telling a child there's no monster under his bed is okay, while telling him there is no god is not".
Again I am not seeing any actual difference between the two statements, and you have consistently failed to show one either. You just want there to be one in a contrived fashion.

Given the state of the evidence at this time, the statements are to my mind identical in all ways except you personally take issue with one, not the other, and imagine you are in the majority because imagining you are in the majority is literally the only support you have for that position.
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Old 06-11-2014, 07:03 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,245,374 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I have not seen you show any utility in it at all really.
"Show"? You want me to invite you into my home so you can observe how when I tell my son "There are no monsters under your bed", it helps him calm down? Again, disingenuity. You know good and well some exceptions to the rule are helpful in parenting; others are not. What I'm still waiting on is a use for this "There is no god" stuff. I mean, provided you don't first teach the kid that all deities are something to fear (which I wouldn't put past a lot of my fellow atheist parents either), I don't see the purpose in that. Enlighten me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Nope. I am pointing out that it is better to argue the merits of your position rather than invent people you imagine agree with you in some kind of fantasy "Argument ad populum" attempt.
It's no attempt. Just a statement. You can "disbelieve" all you want (I really think you know I'm right that most parents are okay with "There are no monsters" but not "There is no god"). But I'm not trying to win a debate here, only have a discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Again I am not seeing any actual difference between the two statements, and you have consistently failed to show one either.
I have elaborated on the difference in a handful of posts now. I have agreed they share a lack in supporting evidence but rejected your view that this is all that matters in the grand scheme of things. In life, as you're living it, some things serve a constructive purpose (e.g., "There are no monsters under your bed") and others serve a destructive purpose (e.g., "There is no god"). Stop pretending one is not inherently more beneficial than the other! Stop pretending all statements lacking evidence are of exactly equal worth in the real world outside of debate. Would you also put "(Said to a lover) You're the one for me" on the same shelf as "There is a god"? Why or why not?
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Old 06-12-2014, 01:42 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
"Show"? You want me to invite you into my home so you can observe how when I tell my son
No I want you to argue your point without appeals to authority, throw away snide remarks, a fetish for the word "disingenuous" and by providing actual points which support it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
It's no attempt.
Except it was. And a poor one. An attempt to support your point by pretending the majority of people agree with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I have elaborated on the difference in a handful of posts now.
Poorly and ineffectually. You have just flapped about at it and not once shown any actual objective difference in the two statements. Only that you personally like one, and not the other.
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Old 06-12-2014, 04:33 AM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,245,374 times
Reputation: 2619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
No I want you to argue your point without appeals to authority, throw away snide remarks, a fetish for the word "disingenuous" and by providing actual points which support it.
Well the argument is right in front of you. Acknowledge it whenever you will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Except it was. And a poor one. An attempt to support your point by pretending the majority of people agree with it.
You deny that most parents would be okay with another parent telling their kid "There are no monsters under your bed" but not "There is no god". That's perfectly fine by me. Since I am not attempting to convince anyone of this nor "support my point" (because I've already given my own reason for holding this view), we can leave our conversation at that and I will be fine. But what about you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Poorly and ineffectually. You have just flapped about at it and not once shown any actual objective difference in the two statements. Only that you personally like one, and not the other.
Since "disingenuous" is not a word you can appreciate, how bout "dishonest"? I most certainly have gone beyond "I like this statement more than the other"

Do you have an argument against mine that the first statement might ease a child's mind so he can get some sleep and the second really has no benefit unless you instill in the child an unnecessary (and far from inevitable) fear of any and all deities, or do you not? You can keep demanding that I do more all you like. But I would like to see you do something. You know, seeing as how you're the one trying to... debate this?
However poorly and ineffectually.

ETA: I noticed you didn't answer my question (surprise surprise), about "There is a god" vs "You're the one for me". Would you care to give it a shot this time around?
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Old 06-12-2014, 02:23 PM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Well the argument is right in front of you. Acknowledge it whenever you will.
One can not acknowledge what is not there. Are you turning religious on us?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
You deny that most parents would be okay with another parent telling their kid "There are no monsters under your bed" but not "There is no god". That's perfectly fine by me.
Again: I do not care if the majority of people agree with it or not. I "deny" nothing. I am saying the number of people who agree with you.... real or in this case imagined..... is irrelevant to whether you can defend your point or not. Clealy: Not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Since "disingenuous" is not a word you can appreciate, how bout "dishonest"?
Changing your snide and inaccurate accusations from one word to another adds nothing to your lack of arguments on the issue however poorly and ineffectually you have been trying to do so.
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