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Old 06-12-2014, 03:24 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,245,374 times
Reputation: 2619

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
One can not acknowledge what is not there. Are you turning religious on us?
Yet again, my argument is that the difference between "There are no monsters under your bed" and "There is no god" is that one can help ease a child's mind so they can get a good night's sleep while the other does no one any good but the indoctrinating parent who has placed their anti-theist agenda over the religious freedom of their child. I have asked you repeatedly to tell us what benefit may be found in telling a child "There is no god" without first convincing them that all deities are necessarily something to fear, and you have refused to do so (claiming some vague post buried under the others, with a post number you refuse to give me no matter how many times I ask, has done this already).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Again: I do not care if the majority of people agree with it or not. I "deny" nothing. I am saying the number of people who agree with you.... real or in this case imagined..... is irrelevant to whether you can defend your point or not. Clealy: Not.
Contradiction. By saying I'm just "imagining" that most parents would frown on indoctrinating a child that there is no god but not on telling them there aren't monsters under their bed, you are certainly denying it. Which is fine by me! I already said we can let that go. My argument does not rest on the statement that most parents would agree with me; I've already given it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Changing your snide and inaccurate accusations from one word to another adds nothing to your lack of arguments on the issue
I gave my argument. My pinning you with the "dishonest" label was to point out that, despite your claim to the contrary, I have given more of an argument than "I just like this statement and not the other". And I know you are not merely unaware of my argument because you've been responding to the posts in which I've repeated it all along. You are being dishonest. You are claiming that I haven't given an argument when, really, it's just that you can't counter it. For example, you have repeatedly neglected to defend telling a child "There is no god" by describing some sort of benefit. Does it spawn from some assumption or stereotype about theists and therefore "reason" to make damn sure your child doesn't become one? The world will never know, apparently, because you seem to be going far, far out of your way to avoid telling us.

Last edited by Vic 2.0; 06-12-2014 at 03:34 PM..
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Old 06-12-2014, 03:33 PM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Yet again, my argument is that the difference between "There are no monsters under your bed" and "There is no god" is that one can help ease a child's mind
And again my point is that therefore you can show no difference between the statements except you personally have an issue with one of them. So thanks for, yet again, making my point for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
Contradiction.
Nice of you to label the contents of your paragraph in advance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
My argument does not rest on the statement that most parents would agree with me; I've already given it.
Except yes it does because that is pretty much all you have offered in support of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
I gave my argument. My pinning you with the "dishonest" label was to point out that, despite your claim to the contrary, I have given more of an argument than "I just like this statement and not the other".
Except you have done no such thing. You have not shown a single difference between the two statements except you personally think one is good parenting and the other is not.
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Old 06-12-2014, 04:52 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,245,374 times
Reputation: 2619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
And again my point is that therefore you can show no difference between the statements except you personally have an issue with one of them. So thanks for, yet again, making my point for me.
I told you what the issue is; that's different from saying "Hyuck, I like one but not the other".

And no one should have to "show" you that telling a kid there aren't any monsters under his bed is reassuring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Nice of you to label the contents of your paragraph in advance.
Actually, as anyone can see, I was pointing out that (and exactly how) you contradicted yourself. But you seem to be implying now that I've contradicted myself... Any chance of you elaborating on that?

Or would you add it to the list of challenges you've refused to meet:

1. Failure to describe a benefit in telling a kid "There is no god".
2. Failure to give me a post number in which you've done this (after saying you have done it).
3. Failure to answer my question about whether you'd put "(Said to a lover) You're the one for me" on the same shelf as "There is a god", much less explain your answer.

Hmmm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Except you have done no such thing. You have not shown a single difference between the two statements except you personally think one is good parenting and the other is not.
I told you why one is both popular and beneficial in parenting, and why the other isn't. You on the other hand continue to fail at telling us how indoctrinating a kid to be an atheist comes anywhere close to good parenting. You won't share your argument, is the issue we're having here. But by all means, keep your secret. I don't suspect I'm missing out on much anyway

ETA: You quoted me as someone else, BTW.
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Old 06-12-2014, 07:31 PM
 
16,105 posts, read 17,927,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post


I told you why one is both popular and beneficial in parenting, and why the other isn't. You on the other hand continue to fail at telling us how indoctrinating a kid to be an atheist comes anywhere close to good parenting. You won't share your argument, is the issue we're having here. But by all means, keep your secret. I don't suspect I'm missing out on much anyway
Seriously, why is it any of your business what an atheist parent tells his or her child. Christians indoctrinate their children into whatever particular sect they believe in. I think that is child abuse, but you think it is the best way to raise children.

The Christian God in particular is an abusive father.

He lays guilt trips on his *children.*
(If we cannot live up to his standards of conduct, we are guilty of sinning)

He makes his children responsible for his feelings.
(If we don't worship him, he feels sad)

He threatens his children with abandonment, rejection and punishment.
(This is what hell is all about).

He is unpredictable.
(floods, fires, famines, earthquakes, tornadoes, etc. all come at unpredictable times)

Now, it is possible that other religions do better - certainly Deism does as the deist creator just makes the world and humans and doesn't interact with us. Still I see no reason not to tell a child that it is unlikely that any God even the deist one exists.
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Old 06-12-2014, 08:19 PM
 
172 posts, read 215,237 times
Reputation: 138
poor kid, he sounds tormented already. CPS should be on this.
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Old 06-12-2014, 09:26 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,245,374 times
Reputation: 2619
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Seriously, why is it any of your business what an atheist parent tells his or her child. Christians indoctrinate their children into whatever particular sect they believe in. I think that is child abuse, but you think it is the best way to raise children.
It's my business because I care about the child's freedom to choose for themselves what they want to believe. This means I don't think parents should tell their kids there is a god as if it's factual either, only whether or not they believe in one. I agree that most Christians (which I am not one of) indoctrinate their kids and, if you think it is child abuse you should think of telling them "There is no god" as child abuse as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
The Christian God in particular is an abusive father.

He lays guilt trips on his *children.*
(If we cannot live up to his standards of conduct, we are guilty of sinning)

He makes his children responsible for his feelings.
(If we don't worship him, he feels sad)

He threatens his children with abandonment, rejection and punishment.
(This is what hell is all about).

He is unpredictable.
(floods, fires, famines, earthquakes, tornadoes, etc. all come at unpredictable times)
While you and I share interpretations on the Christian God (actually, I think much less of him than just this), this is not the experience or perception of him that most Christians would describe. Indeed, some of them don't even believe in a Hell. They emphasize all the good (that he heals, protects, loves, etc.) and downplay, excuse away, or just plain reject the bad. Is it a particularly wise approach or choice of religion? No, not in my opinion. But I do not assume it necessarily harms anyone. Known too many Christians (and too many Christian children) to entertain that notion for a minute. That is why I say parents can be free to promote either belief system (or lack thereof) to their kids, but atheists that do essentially what most Christian parents do (i.e., indoctrinate) should not pretend to have something over said Christian parents. They should admit they care just as little about their kids' religious freedom as their Christian counterparts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
Now, it is possible that other religions do better - certainly Deism does as the deist creator just makes the world and humans and doesn't interact with us. Still I see no reason not to tell a child that it is unlikely that any God even the deist one exists.
"Unlikely" is better than "There isn't one". But even that assumes a level of understanding about the universe that I think kids should be given the time to assume (or choose not to) on their own. Everything should be as open and honest as possible, on this subject, IMO. That is the core difference between indoctrination and education.
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Old 06-12-2014, 10:11 PM
 
583 posts, read 1,491,688 times
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i will not teach my child that the fairy tales are real but will expose him to the dogma of all faiths. but will tell him they are stories. and if when he is older if he wants to believe. the stories are real he can but grown up he will be told they are ancaint myth. but he will have a working knowledge of them as to under stand and respect the belief of those who chose to live by them.. but also so be taught to tell those that try to force it on him . in school to shove it. but if he is at some ones home and they say grace to show respect as it is some ones home. we do not bless the meal in our home if your at our house and you wish to say grace you can to your self but we will not do it with you but in your home we will bow our head because it is your house,
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:52 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,286,683 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I told you what the issue is
Yes and I responded. The issue you see is that you feel that although the statements are exactly the same objectively, you subjectively find one to be good parenting and not the other. I get that that is what you think. I am not getting WHY you think it. Remember too that your original point was NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "good parenting" or "a good nights sleep". The reason you gave was....

"Never say never, but I hope I never tell my son point blank "God is not real" because, well, I do not know that."

.... and the simple point I made which have since gotten you all haughty, uppity and flappy is that you simply do not know there is no monsters under their bed either. So while you have given "I do not know that" as your criteria for not saying "There is no god"..... clearly this is not the actual parameters you operate under because you are perfectly willing to dismiss that parameter when and where it suits you subjectively. You are trotting out lines like the one I just pasted, but then turning into "Captain Caveat" whenever you have to apply it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Actually, as anyone can see, I was pointing out that (and exactly how) you contradicted yourself.
Which given I did no such thing, you have entirely failed to do. Spectacularly so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Or would you add it to the list of challenges you've refused to meet
I have only had to meet one challenge, which is to support what my point has been all along: that the statements are objectively the same. I have done this well and you do not like it so you are attempting to derail me into defending points that I never made.

I intend only to defend the point I have actually been making. I do not intend to be derailed into defending off topic derail "challanges" you have spewed out as a distraction tactic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
You on the other hand continue to fail at telling us how indoctrinating a kid to be an atheist comes anywhere close to good parenting.
Because, as I just typed above, that is not the point I have been making. I intend only to defend my actual point on this thread. Not tangential ones you are attempting to derail with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
You won't share your argument, is the issue we're having here.
I am sharing my argument perfectly well thank you. What I am not sharing is your fetish for going off on tangents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
It's my business because I care about the child's freedom to choose for themselves what they want to believe.
Except when you do not feel that way. Which is arbitrarily or subjectively chosen by you. You clearly do not care about your child's freedom to choose for themselves what to believe about monsters under their bed. So the child has the freedom as long as you deem yourself that they have the freedom.
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Old 06-13-2014, 06:17 AM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,245,374 times
Reputation: 2619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Yes and I responded. The issue you see is that you feel that although the statements are exactly the same objectively, you subjectively find one to be good parenting and not the other.
It's not a subjective judgement call that telling a kid "There are no monsters under your bed" can ease their mind when they're afraid of exactly that. And being against indoctrination is subjective, yes; but that goes for indoctrination both ways. It goes for anything you might have to say about Christian parents who also indoctrinate their children. My point was that these are two sides of the same coin...

And when are you going to get around to telling us exactly what's to be gained from indoctrinating a child to be atheist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I get that that is what you think. I am not getting WHY you think it. Remember too that your original point was NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "good parenting" or "a good nights sleep". The reason you gave was....

"Never say never, but I hope I never tell my son point blank "God is not real" because, well, I do not know that."

.... and the simple point I made which have since gotten you all haughty, uppity and flappy is that you simply do not know there is no monsters under their bed either. So while you have given "I do not know that" as your criteria for not saying "There is no god"..... clearly this is not the actual parameters you operate under because you are perfectly willing to dismiss that parameter when and where it suits you subjectively.
Round and round we go. I clarified that that was not the sole reason for not telling him "There's no god" a long time ago in this discussion. I agreed with you that they are the same in terms of lacking evidence. But what you fail to understand is that there are more reasons to/not to tell a child something. I let it be known right away: I am a parent first. This means I will do what I have reason to think will be beneficial to my child. Pushing atheism on him is not one of them! Why can't you admit this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Which given I did no such thing, you have entirely failed to do. Spectacularly so.
Then why didn't you address my description of your self-contradiction? Rather than implying that I contradicted myself and, unsurprisingly, choosing not to explain that when I asked. You have a bad habit of doing this, Nozz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I have only had to meet one challenge, which is to support what my point has been all along: that the statements are objectively the same. I have done this well and you do not like it so you are attempting to derail me into defending points that I never made.
Incorrect. To say that these statements are the same, you would have to provide at least a claim for a benefit behind telling them "There is no god", as I have done for telling them "There are no monsters under your bed". And calling you out on statements you have in fact made is not derailing, particularly when they are all relevant to the subject of the thread itself. If you want to limit our conversation to a single argument, I'm not in the wrong for not helping you do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I am sharing my argument perfectly well thank you. What I am not sharing is your fetish for going off on tangents.
How is asking you to make good your claim that these statements are the same, going off on a tangent? In terms of the thread or the argument with which you prefer to limit it?

No. If you want to say they are the same, it's time you come up with some benefits to indoctrinating a child to be an atheist in and of itself already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Except when you do not feel that way. Which is arbitrarily or subjectively chosen by you. You clearly do not care about your child's freedom to choose for themselves what to believe about monsters under their bed. So the child has the freedom as long as you deem yourself that they have the freedom.
I've explained the difference. You, however, have not presented anything by which to determine these statements are the same. Yes yes, we get that they share a similarity (that being a lack of evidence), but that does not mean they are exactly the same. Results should count for something, yes? So we all know what we're trying to accomplish by telling them "There are no monsters under your bed". Just what are you hoping to accomplish by telling them "There is no god"? Simple question.
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:13 AM
 
10 posts, read 16,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WSPHXPELON View Post
My son is 5 years old. Ever since he was born I have been asking myself how I am going to educate him in regard to religion...My wife's side of the family are fairly Catholic. My mother-in-law had my son baptized when he was a baby (I did not protest). Well, I had finally decided that what I would tell my son regarding "God" would be that I would just avoid the subject and/or "play it off" like I was a believer when the subject came up...

Well, today, for the first time ever, my son started asking me questions about God. I just couldn't make myself betray my son by feeding him lies. I told him the truth, that God, "is not real"; and I explained that some people believe very strongly that God does exist but that my personal belief which I feel to be true is that God does not exist.

Well, he was okay with it. He said, "Okay, God isn't real. Only Santa Claus is real and he is the one that takes care of us, right?" So, I had already broken the news to him about God (the big lie), so I broke the news to him about Santa Claus as well. I told him that Santa Claus is not real either and that the presents are from me and my wife. I told him that the only people that will "take care of us", are us; and that is why we must be good people and value and appreciate each other and our families. He seemed very understanding and none of it seemed to upset him the slightest.

Long story short, did I just mess up?? Should I have let the facade carried on for years??

What do you think? How have you handled raising children being an Atheist? Please just share some thoughts on this topic because it has really been bothering me....
Introduce them to science and logic as soon as possible. Give them the tools to understand WHY god does not exist. The more questions he asks about the fallacies in the Bible, the better off he will be. Good luck.
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