U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-21-2014, 12:53 AM
 
34,390 posts, read 41,490,319 times
Reputation: 29865

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post

Where the analogy fails is that many parents actively do go telling children that santa and god are real. This is not indulging their fantasy. This is actively lying to them.

.
In my experience whether God, Santa or any other equivalent character is real or not should be left to the child to figure it out for themselves as they grow up and mature.
I fail to see the point of loudly/ self righteously proclaiming to a 5 year old kid that God isnt real,God is a fake you will not believe in this deity and while we are at it all your fantasy friends are not real either its all lies and deception..
All my grown up friends and family grew up and figured out Santa the tooth fairy etc
all by themselves, As for God? some believe and some dont, Personally i'm an atheist but i'm not so presumptuous as to dictate to my child that God doesnt exist as he may not exist for me but how do i know he wont exist for my 5yr old child when he grows up. Theres always the possibility i could be wrong in my presumptions.
Either way IMO 5 years old is a bit too young to engage the kid in philosophical debates about religion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-21-2014, 06:23 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,939,436 times
Reputation: 1804
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Did I miss this somewhere along the way?
To those that insist that an outright "No, there is no god" is not the answer that should be given, are you saying that the answer to "Is there a monster under the bed?" should be , "I don't know, but I don't think so."
Looking under the bed will not prove there is no monster under there, of course, since monsters could have all sorts of powers including invisibilty (You know, like god)
Gods are so special and important that we can't possibly hold them to the same standards of evidence as we use for everything real in the world. If we did, they might just disappear.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2014, 06:29 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,939,436 times
Reputation: 1804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Right you are! This is why I started with saying something to the effect of "Never say never, but I hope to never tell my son there is no god", because even I've slipped up and illustrated just how easy it is to lead your child by the nose into your own personal beliefs, stepping on their own ability to choose for themselves. Good eye, KC
OK, now that you're being consistent, hope you apply this same standard to the rest of the questions you get :

"Do you love me, daddy?"

Well, as far as I know I think I might. Then again, maybe I'm just being tricked by a powerful invisible being who will someday make me kill you in your sleep. But cheer up, maybe you're just a brain in a vat imagining me and I don't even exist at all. You might very well be all alone in a universe of your own making and there's nothing you can do to change this pointless existence.

But don't worry, son, I'm pretty sure I love you and won't be driven into an insane murder spree by unseen forces.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2014, 03:09 PM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,282,434 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Then why on earth are we still going back and forth?
Perhaps ask the guy in the mirror before you ask me. I have read over this interaction and some you have had with other people and you do seem to have a penchant for latching on to things you THINK you are arguing against and spend inordinate amounts of your own time going "back and forth" in arguments you are actually mostly having with yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
If we both agree that neither "There is no god" nor "There are no monsters under your bed" have evidence to support them, but they differ in their usefulness, that's good enough for me.
I have been saying this from the start. I think what you took exception to is the fact I find your reasoning on that usefulness to be arbitrary, contrived, and reliant on too many caveats even to itself. You make strong statements that apply to both that you, for reasons of your own, only apply to ONE. And as I said above you end up arguing against yourself more than the person you are going "back and forth" with.

Such as when I pointed out that you are no less "imposing your view" or "closing down a childs ability to find out for itself" when you tell them there is no monsters under their bed. You might have CAVEATS to your rule that these are good things or bad things.... but the clear fact is you are applying stringent rules rigidly but only when they personally suit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
So now we're going to argue over whether it's honorable to try and ensure your kid gets a good night's rest
If that is what you want to reduce my point down to then so be it but that is not even close to what I was saying. You do not have to bring the Reductio Absurdum approach to everything I say you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
And where was that purpose of telling them "There is no god" I asked for, quite a while back, hmmmmm?
Exactly where I told you it would be. And exactly where it will stay regardless of how many times you ask.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2014, 03:16 PM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,282,434 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
In my experience whether God, Santa or any other equivalent character is real or not should be left to the child to figure it out for themselves as they grow up and mature.
Not in my experience. And not in my intention. I am happy to make strong claims in the light of the state of the evidence, even if those claims sound like 100% claims but are not. If my child thinks aliens might come in his window and take her away tonight I will tell her this is NOT going to happen. If a child ask me if there is a god I will tell them no. And I will answer those questions in the same way for the same reasons..... they are a judgement call on the current state of the evidence.

Theists might get off on equivocating over the 100% certainty that one can pedantically extract from the language used..... and if we were to all exercise that degree of pedantry I will grant they are ENTIRELY correct in their tirades..... but what I say and why I say it will still remain unchanged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
I fail to see the point of loudly/ self righteously proclaiming to a 5 year old kid that God isnt real
You, like VIC, would do well to look at your own language and tone when discussing this topic. When I tell a child there is no monster under their bed this is ok. But if I tell them there is no god.... which I do for the EXACT same reasons...... and intentions.... you suddenly start using language like "loudly" and "self righteously" and "proclaiming".

Nothing I am doing between the two scenarios is changing. But in your case AND in VICs case the language YOU use to _describe_ what I am doing changes. And it changes RADICALLY. And given nothing that I am doing changes but your response to it does..... this should instantly fly a red flag for you upon which is written "its not him its me!".

Ask yourself when you see me doing two identical things.... why YOUR reaction to it changes to dramatically. Because at this stage neither of you are going to gain anything from dragging out this debate with me. But what you might gain from exploring it yourself will bring you more profit from this than I am going to get.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2014, 05:41 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,240,480 times
Reputation: 2619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Exactly where I told you it would be. And exactly where it will stay regardless of how many times you ask.
Let me guess: That mysterious post with no post number (because that would explain why all the times I asked for a post number, I didn't get one).

The rest of your post is a bunch of bull. I'm not arguing with myself. I'm replying to the things you say. And only in the sense that "Maybe being destructive is the right thing to do!" is it a subjective judgment call that trying to help your child sleep better at night is good parenting, while trying to zap their own individual freedom of religion before they can even understand the value of it is a less than honorable choice - to put it politely.

It's really simple. If you can't directly defend... whatever if it is you are telling your child (without assuming for instance that theism is automatically inferior to atheism), then maybe you should rethink it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
In my experience whether God, Santa or any other equivalent character is real or not should be left to the child to figure it out for themselves as they grow up and mature.
I fail to see the point of loudly/ self righteously proclaiming to a 5 year old kid that God isnt real,God is a fake you will not believe in this deity and while we are at it all your fantasy friends are not real either its all lies and deception..
All my grown up friends and family grew up and figured out Santa the tooth fairy etc
all by themselves, As for God? some believe and some dont, Personally i'm an atheist but i'm not so presumptuous as to dictate to my child that God doesnt exist as he may not exist for me but how do i know he wont exist for my 5yr old child when he grows up. Theres always the possibility i could be wrong in my presumptions.
Either way IMO 5 years old is a bit too young to engage the kid in philosophical debates about religion.
I agree 99%. The leftover 1% is that I can't convince myself that parents who tell this to their five year old kids are doing it to get them involved in philosophical debates... only decisions. Decisions that the parent happens to have made for themselves...

Last edited by Vic 2.0; 06-21-2014 at 06:16 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2014, 06:20 PM
 
16,102 posts, read 17,903,536 times
Reputation: 15895
For atheist parents

https://ffrf.org/shop/books/just-pre...k-for-children

Quote:
Just Pretend: A Freethought Book for Children
A fun book which allows children of "all ages" to explore myths like Santa Claus and compare them with ideas like the existence of God. Entertaining, respectful of children's intelligence, Just Pretend encourages kids to apply the tests of reason to any idea, fairy tale, myth or religion. Ages 6-12 recommended (but appropriate for children of "all ages"!), fully illustrated, 72 pages.
http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Freeth.../dp/0814410960

Quote:
"Raising Freethinkers" offers solutions to the unique challenges secular parents face and provides specific answers to common questions, as well as over 100 activities for both parents and their children. This book covers every important topic nonreligious parents need to know to help their children with their own moral and intellectual development, including advice on religious-extended-family issues, death and life, secular celebrations, wondering and questioning, and more. Complete with reviews of books, DVDs, curricula, educational toys, and online resources relevant to each chapter topic, "Raising Freethinkers " helps parents raise their children with confidence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-22-2014, 04:16 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,815 posts, read 19,910,927 times
Reputation: 23221
Have you read this and are you endorsing it?
I doubt any of us are going to rush to buy it just to read it so we can offer an opinion on it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-22-2014, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,965 posts, read 6,502,475 times
Reputation: 44359
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Have you read this and are you endorsing it?
I doubt any of us are going to rush to buy it just to read it so we can offer an opinion on it.
Me thinks she is trying to help and you are just being nasty.

I opened the second link since it was from Amazon and there are 50 reviews on this book. That's a lot and obviously the book must be popular.
It got a better than 4.5 star rating (out of 5) so that's a lot of positive opinions and write-ups to go on.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-22-2014, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,815 posts, read 19,910,927 times
Reputation: 23221
Quote:
Originally Posted by John13 View Post
Me thinks she is trying to help and you are just being nasty.

I opened the second link since it was from Amazon and there are 50 reviews on this book. That's a lot and obviously the book must be popular.
It got a better than 4.5 star rating (out of 5) so that's a lot of positive opinions and write-ups to go on.
50 Shades Darker ( Author of 50 Shades of Grey) has, on Amazon 10,059 reviews and a 4.5 rating.
A bit more popular but I still have no intention of reading it and base no conclusions about it's worth on those figures.
With only 50 reviews do I conclude that you're easily influenced?

With a post like that which only contains a link to something for sale, it contributes nothing to the conversation.
Some suggestions from the material and perhaps an opinion of it might.

Last edited by old_cold; 06-22-2014 at 08:51 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Atheism and Agnosticism
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top