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Old 06-22-2014, 11:02 AM
 
16,105 posts, read 17,919,494 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Have you read this and are you endorsing it?
I doubt any of us are going to rush to buy it just to read it so we can offer an opinion on it.
I am a grandparent and these were not around when I raised my kids. I wish they had been. Yes, I have read them and I like them. Not everyone will, I suppose, but most of the atheist parents on babycenter seem to like them too.
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Old 06-22-2014, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,970 posts, read 6,508,064 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
50 Shades Darker ( Author of 50 Shades of Grey) has, on Amazon 10,059 reviews and a4.5 rating.
A bit more popular but I still have no intention of reading it and base no conclusions about it's worth on those figures.
With only 50 reviews do I conclude that you're easily influenced?

With a post like that which only contains a link to something for sale, it contributes nothing to the conversation.
Some suggestions from the material and perhaps an opinion of it might.
What a dumb question and quite insulting.

I did not endorse that book nor do I intend to buy it. I am single, no children.
Point is it could be good due to the many positive comments from others that thought it was helpful.

After reading 50 reviews it may help to spark some interest in whether I would buy a book or not.
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Old 06-22-2014, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,837 posts, read 19,932,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
I am a grandparent and these were not around when I raised my kids. I wish they had been. Yes, I have read them and I like them. Not everyone will, I suppose, but most of the atheist parents on babycenter seem to like them too.

Thank you. Any quick and easy hints you can offer here pertinent to the biggest ....well, longest, anyway...point of contention on this thread that you found most helpful?
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Old 06-22-2014, 12:10 PM
 
16,105 posts, read 17,919,494 times
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Given that religion is all around us in the US, kids will need to be introduced to it. The easiest way to do that is to teach *about* religion without telling them what to believe. Teaching them to be critical thinkers about all issues is the way to go. My granddaughter knows that her best friend believes in his Christian church, so she does not talk to him about religion. Unfortunately, if she did talk to him, his mom would not allow them to play together. In fact, he is rarely allowed to play with her now since she talks about astronomy with him. He is homeschooled and doesn't know anything about the planets which is one of her favorite topics.
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Old 06-22-2014, 03:10 PM
 
Location: North by Northwest
7,442 posts, read 9,891,968 times
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I don't think it's per se wrong to tell a child God doesn't exist any more than it is wrong to raise a child according to a particular religious faith (provided the parents don't go to extremes). IMO, a five-year-old can't really grasp the concept either way. That said, if I (atheist Jew) and my probable future wife (nominally religious lapsed Catholic) had a five-year-old who asked if God was real, I would probably start by telling the child my beliefs and seeing how interested he/she is in discussing the matter.

I do hope to instill an ethno-cultural Jewish identity in my children at the sort of Reform synagogue where most of the members are atheist or agnostic and the Rabbi wouldn't bat an eye at any of them outwardly declaring their theological doubt/non-belief (quite a lot of them these days), and at the end of the day, whether they believe in a higher power is immaterial to me as long as they don't swing too far toward either extreme.
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Old 06-22-2014, 05:39 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,244,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenWood View Post
I don't think it's per se wrong to tell a child God doesn't exist any more than it is wrong to raise a child according to a particular religious faith (provided the parents don't go to extremes).
I would consider a bold assertion such as "There is no god" or "There is a god" extreme. But you are correct; I wouldn't say it's wrong to indoctrinate your child... Well, that statement probably hasn't been uttered here before! But I mean it, indoctrinate away. I just don't think we as atheists can get upset with Christian parents who step on their kids' right to choose for themselves, if we're going to be doing the same.
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Old 06-22-2014, 06:05 PM
 
Location: North by Northwest
7,442 posts, read 9,891,968 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I would consider a bold assertion such as "There is no god" or "There is a god" extreme. But you are correct; I wouldn't say it's wrong to indoctrinate your child... Well, that statement probably hasn't been uttered here before! But I mean it, indoctrinate away. I just don't think we as atheists can get upset with Christian parents who step on their kids' right to choose for themselves, if we're going to be doing the same.
We all indoctrinate our children to some extent; any time you try to impart subjective values on a child, it's a form of indoctrination. It's only a problem, IMO, when reasonably expressed dissenting opinions are treated with an iron fist. There is a big difference between "I believe in God" and "I believe in God and you must as well."

And I make it a point of not getting upset with people who act within the bounds of the law unless they're harming someone I care about, even if I happen to disapprove of their actions. For example, I strongly disfavor corporal punishment, but I recognize that a parent does (and should) have the right to spank a child so long as he/she doesn't leave a mark.

Last edited by ElijahAstin; 06-22-2014 at 06:13 PM..
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Old 06-22-2014, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,094,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenWood View Post
We all indoctrinate our children to some extent; any time you try to impart subjective values on a child, it's a form of indoctrination. It's only a problem, IMO, when reasonably expressed dissenting opinions are treated with an iron fist. There is a big difference between "I believe in God" and "I believe in God and you must as well."
I am quite grateful for what my father indoctrinated me with, for the most part. Things like the value and importance of hard work, persistence, craftsmanship, attention to detail, constancy, stability, loyalty ... these have all done wonders for my well being and equipped me to exhibit those things, however imperfectly, in my own life. I did not end up agreeing with his belief in god, ultimately, and although that didn't really gel until after his death, if he were still alive he would respect my right to live by my own convictions, no matter how disappointed or concerned it might have made him. I know this because he kept his lip zipped about the dips__t I married the first time around, and even that was good training for me, as I managed to do the same with regard to my daughter's first husband.

In short, I was not his "mini-me". He did not live vicariously through me and he did not rely on me to realize his own broken dreams. His greatest gift to me was to allow me to be my own man.

Given that, he was entitle to "indoctrinate" me to his heart's content.

That is why I have mostly sat this particular thread out, it strikes me as a tempest in a teapot. Tell your kid what you think and believe, you are there to guide your children and you aren't obligated to hyper qualify everything in some politically correct, milquetoast fashion. In any case when they are old enough, they will rebel and break your heart if they want, and think nothing of it. This notion that you will scar or hobble a child for life simply by being yourself, is hogwash. Thinking that is overlooking that they are present for their life too, have a role, and a responsibility. It has been fashionable in some quarters to blame parents for everything that's wrong in their kid's lives, as if there's a way for parents to guarantee outcomes. In the process of fixing the blame there, we let kids off the hook for what they do with their own lives.
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Old 06-22-2014, 07:32 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,244,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenWood View Post
We all indoctrinate our children to some extent; any time you try to impart subjective values on a child, it's a form of indoctrination. It's only a problem, IMO, when reasonably expressed dissenting opinions are treated with an iron fist. There is a big difference between "I believe in God" and "I believe in God and you must as well."
I guess that's why I was so quick to say I didn't think indoctrination was wrong, even on the god question. But I honestly don't think it's usually "You must as well"; I think it's usually "This is the right way", and both theists and atheists can be guilty of that with their children. That's what I'm really opposing here. Typically, when I discuss this mentality with other atheists, they make it sound as if Christian parents are the only ones who do it. Yet, some atheists seem convinced that the only right way is atheism and will probably raise their kids to think the same.
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:19 PM
 
Location: North by Northwest
7,442 posts, read 9,891,968 times
Reputation: 4691
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I am quite grateful for what my father indoctrinated me with, for the most part. Things like the value and importance of hard work, persistence, craftsmanship, attention to detail, constancy, stability, loyalty ... these have all done wonders for my well being and equipped me to exhibit those things, however imperfectly, in my own life. I did not end up agreeing with his belief in god, ultimately, and although that didn't really gel until after his death, if he were still alive he would respect my right to live by my own convictions, no matter how disappointed or concerned it might have made him. I know this because he kept his lip zipped about the dips__t I married the first time around, and even that was good training for me, as I managed to do the same with regard to my daughter's first husband.

In short, I was not his "mini-me". He did not live vicariously through me and he did not rely on me to realize his own broken dreams. His greatest gift to me was to allow me to be my own man.

Given that, he was entitle to "indoctrinate" me to his heart's content.

That is why I have mostly sat this particular thread out, it strikes me as a tempest in a teapot. Tell your kid what you think and believe, you are there to guide your children and you aren't obligated to hyper qualify everything in some politically correct, milquetoast fashion. In any case when they are old enough, they will rebel and break your heart if they want, and think nothing of it. This notion that you will scar or hobble a child for life simply by being yourself, is hogwash. Thinking that is overlooking that they are present for their life too, have a role, and a responsibility. It has been fashionable in some quarters to blame parents for everything that's wrong in their kid's lives, as if there's a way for parents to guarantee outcomes. In the process of fixing the blame there, we let kids off the hook for what they do with their own lives.
Great post! I couldn't agree more.
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