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Old 06-24-2014, 04:56 PM
Status: "Watching America made small." (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,904 posts, read 13,463,542 times
Reputation: 11710

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
As HAL 9000 would say, "there can be no purpose in this conversation anymore."
Except for the fun factor of watching someone squirm.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:06 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,247,893 times
Reputation: 2619
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
Except for the fun factor of watching someone squirm.
N-deed
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Old 06-25-2014, 01:33 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,289,313 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
You said I was shrill and desperate, Nozz. That is a personal attack, whether you admit it or not.
Nope I said you become shrill and desperate in that exact context when you perform that exact action. Not that YOU are shrill and desperate in and of yourself, but you BECOME so when you engage in that particular tactic.

SO it was a description of what you are doing in this particular case in the context where I was making a statement. If you are so desperate to feel insulted that you have to contrive to find insult where none exists then the problem lies with you, not me.

If however you feel insult exists, simply report the post and let the mods decide. I will not be derailed by you by this contrived tangent any longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
This is just your way of saying you can't answer questions that naturally followed the statements you have made.
Nope. It is my way of saying I have a point to make and I am sticking to it. And I am not going to be derailed by you into other points that I never made. It is you that can not answer the points I actually have made so you need to move into other points you feel you CAN answer rather than simply conceeding my point which you appear constitutionally unable to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
We are far beyond the point that "The reason I won't tell my son there is no god is because I do not know" is not correct.
You might be beyond this but I am not. My point still remains the same.

I am happy to repeat it for the 10th or whatever time:

1) You claim that you will not tell a kid there is no god because you do not "know" that and that you see this as "indoctrination".
2) I point out that you claiming there are no monsters under the child's bed is also something you do not "know" and is also just as much "indoctrination" of a child into your view point on the matter. I also point out that objectively speaking the statements are identical in their truth value.
3) You then become Captain Caveat and start justifying the distinction by giving us your subjective reasoning on what constitutes good parenting or not. And it is this that I find arbitrary and contrived because your subjective parenting standards are not objective and are simply caveats to the original post I replied to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
If you have any other points to make, I will be glad to consider them.
Exactly. You are desperate to consider "other" points. You are desperate to get away from the ACTUAL point I am making because you simply can not answer it and you simply will not allow yourself concede it. Your entire MO on this and other threads is to find OTHER points to reply to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
But if you're done contributing, let me know now, so we can stop wasting each other's time. Thank you.
You can do what you want with your time. I am happy thus far with how I have invested mine.
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Old 06-25-2014, 05:41 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,247,893 times
Reputation: 2619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Nope I said you become shrill and desperate in that exact context when you perform that exact action. Not that YOU are shrill and desperate in and of yourself, but you BECOME so when you engage in that particular tactic.
Even then, you can't see how calling someone "desperate" even in a specific context instead of calling the behavior desperate qualifies as an attack on the person and not the behavior?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Nope. It is my way of saying I have a point to make and I am sticking to it. And I am not going to be derailed by you into other points that I never made.
A. You don't have a point to make. Not any longer. Because we have both agreed that no, "I don't know for sure" is not the sole reason why I wouldn't tell my son there is no god - it interacts with the apparent fact that there is no good purpose for which to do that, while there is a good purpose for reassuring him there's no monsters under his bed when/if he is afraid of exactly that and it's keeping him from sleeping.

B. You can deny it all you want, but the fact remains that you did extend further than making this one point oh so long ago. You tried to argue that it's all arbitrary, my stance that the latter statement is good parenting while the former is not. And so naturally, I asked you for a defense of "There is no god" and you could not/would not provide one. Next time, maybe you will think twice before making an argument you're not prepared and willing to support in any way whatsoever. Calling a comparison subjective does not make it so, especially when the person you're disagreeing with has explained their position and you have not.

And again, on indoctrination, you have presented your argument that both statements are indoctrinating. But after I pointed out that I never said people shouldn't indoctrinate their kids on anything at all, you had nothing new to say. Yet you pretend that I did not address this argument.
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Old 06-26-2014, 02:40 AM
 
Location: Virginia
93 posts, read 60,977 times
Reputation: 326
I can see that this is a very controversial thread. I wanted to express my personal viewpoint to the OP. I think the fact that you care so much about what you've said to your son speaks to your parenting ability. Being a good parent isn't a right or wrong/black or white state. I think the things that matter most are that your son knows you love him, you teach him your values, and let him find his own path. I think you are doing a good job because it is so obvious that you care.

For example: my father is a Baha'i and he raised me with Baha'i indoctrination until I decided at the ripe old age of 5 that neither God nor Santa Claus were likely probabilities. However, I donít believe he HURT me with his beliefs because when I expressed that they were not my own he let me find my own way and loved and supported me even though he didn't understand or agree with my lack of faith. It never mattered to me what he believed, it only mattered how he treated me.
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Old 06-26-2014, 07:36 AM
 
Location: UK Earth Sol System
37 posts, read 26,360 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by WSPHXPELON View Post
...

Long story short, did I just mess up?? Should I have let the facade carried on for years??...
You were just telling it as it is; or as you see it.
Which is what other people do too, right?

A young relation was talking about God; and wanted to ask something about it.
I told her :
"The gods?"
"...ah..."
"The gods are not real," I told her.
That what what she wanted to hear. She gave me a big smile.

I doubt her parents and grandfather can complain to me over that but I await with interest.
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Old 06-26-2014, 03:20 PM
 
583 posts, read 1,492,451 times
Reputation: 555
it is not abuse telling a child that god is a story and prays is talking to your self. and that faith healers are conmen that cause people to die. yes benny hinn is a killer only is made up god knows how many stopped treatment because his garlick breath cured them. but no wait lack of faith killed them. lack of faith in doctors. that is
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Old 06-29-2014, 03:02 AM
 
39,247 posts, read 10,913,531 times
Reputation: 5101
I have come down (or stay where I was) on the side of telling what you think. Even if the kid wasn't asking; even if the kid was just announcing that 'we were told in school today that God (name you own) is real...'I think it would would be right to say what you think:- The god -claim is no more valid that belief in Santa or leprechauns and all the efforts to make a case for this or that god having more going for it than fanny the fairy or Charlie the unicorn are just the usual efforts to argue from a position of Faith in one fairy tale rather than any of the others.

But, if the kid was asking then it is right to say what you think is true. There is no justification for being bamboozled into silence by some theist playing the 'indoctrination' card, with the result that the kid is unprepared for the indoctrination he is going to get at school - if the theists and the vote (if not God) -fearing politicians who let them drag their mythology into the classroom.
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Old 06-29-2014, 04:29 PM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,846 posts, read 3,362,978 times
Reputation: 4056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
it interacts with the apparent fact that there is no good purpose for which to do that, while there is a good purpose for reassuring him there's no monsters under his bed when/if he is afraid of exactly that and it's keeping him from sleeping.
What if the child was afraid of hell? Or afraid of God?

Would you tell your kid that there are no monsters under the bed if YOU believed there were monsters under there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
And so naturally, I asked you for a defense of "There is no god" and you could not/would not provide one.
I did ... some umteen posts ago.
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Old 06-29-2014, 06:47 PM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,247,893 times
Reputation: 2619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
What if the child was afraid of hell? Or afraid of God?
I think I touched on that earlier. I would tell my son there was no hell or no god that was trying to hurt him. Even some Christians debate that there is no such place as hell, so it would be easy to introduce a fuller perspective on that. I see no need to go further than just to alleviate his fear because, though you may not believe it, that is my #1 concern - him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Would you tell your kid that there are no monsters under the bed if YOU believed there were monsters under there?
If I believed there were monsters under his bed, he wouldn't be sleeping in there in the first place...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
And so naturally, I asked you for a defense of "There is no god" and you could not/would not provide one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
I did ... some umteen posts ago.
Well that makes two people who supposedly did this. The other guy never gave me a post number or summary of the defense he supposedly made. Can you do one or the other please? Because I cannot find any evidence that a belief in a deity in and of itself is harmful.
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