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Old 07-01-2014, 08:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
It always was futile because you do not see the arrogance and hubris of positively asserting the non-existence of God without any basis whatsoever. There is a huge difference between "I do not believe there is a God" and "There is no God." Moderator cut: deleted Vic understands it perfectly.
You are never going to have any credibility in your argument like this, because you are making the error of assuming that the postulated First cause god is the same as the god of the Bible, and you assume that is the god we are saying doesn't exist (just as much as santa doesn't).

I am quite sure that atheism as an argument and probably any atheist who has thought about it, has Biblegod in mind and is happy to be agnostic with a reservation of belief about some kind of Einstiniian -Spinoza -god.

If you do not see that you are correctly seeing the difference between "I do not believe there is a God" and "There is no God." but incorrectly using it against us, then your argument has deflated before it has got started.

P.s, out of consideration for you, old mate, should you possibly be toying with the idea, don't make it worse for yourself by trying to tell us what you think we ought to think.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:36 PM
 
Location: TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
Just like we do for everything else. So why not be consistent and just use "they don't exist" as we do for everything else where we have a tentative but well-supported reason to believe that claim is true?
I don't feel we do have a reason to believe there is no god. A god that actually cares about us like its/her/his children, maybe, but not the general concept of a god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
What if my child becomes a Muslim and decides to run off to Syria or Iraq to strap on a suicide vest to take one for the team? What if my child believes that only prayer should be used to treat medical conditions and kills one of my grandkids by refusing to take him to the doctor? What if my kid gets tangled in a cult that might lead to suicide?

Believing in and worshiping deities is frought with danger.
You are adding all of that in, instead of sticking with theism in and of itself. I would agree to that last sentence, depending on the deity maybe, but believing in a god doesn't mean you worship it, and it certainly doesn't mean you're going to lose your mind worshiping it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Like I said originally, I'm not going to shed any tears if my kids do not experiment with religion, but given the nature of kids, they probably will. They might heed my words for the first 10-12 years, but after that, they're liable to attend church just because I don't. You know how that goes.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Sorry, but you seem to think that believing in a deity without an attached religion is commonplace. It's not. Odds are very, very good that my kid's first encounter with deity-belief will be through a religion. Even people who claim they aren't religious usually end up concocting a slight variation on whatever religion is dominant in their culture - so a non-religious deity-worshiper still ends up being -mostly- Christian or -mostly- Muslim, etc.
IMO, that's all the more reason not to hinder your kid from believing in an unknowable deity (for instance) with "There is no god". It's just one more alternative to being religious, as I see it. And I think the intrigue of a deity would be less so if a kid opens his mind to the possibility of one, before a religious person comes along to sell their version.
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Old 07-02-2014, 06:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I don't feel we do have a reason to believe there is no god. A god that actually cares about us like its/her/his children, maybe, but not the general concept of a god.
The fact that a "general concept of a god" doesn't actually mean anything is a good enough reason for me.

It is interesting in one thread you're giving god belief a pass because a general concept of god might be there, but in another you say it is necessary to nail down exactly which version of Santa people are using as an analogy to god-belief. Interesting double standard there.
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Old 07-02-2014, 06:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
The fact that a "general concept of a god" doesn't actually mean anything is a good enough reason for me.

It is interesting in one thread you're giving god belief a pass because a general concept of god might be there, but in another you say it is necessary to nail down exactly which version of Santa people are using as an analogy to god-belief. Interesting double standard there.
Exactly what I was arguing - the difference between the reasons to believe (or not) in either God or Santa are the same and they are only made to look different because of the fact - as came out in that video I posted - that different standards are applied by the believer in God to the two questions.

Exactly the same thing happened to the Pantheons of gods; when a huge human was no longer believable, it became invisible. When that didn't comnvince any more it became a sort of idealized 'being' with the wings, blue skin, beard and spears ar whatever were 'Human conventions'. To insist that the Santa -claim is not permitted to do the same to keep on the same rationalizing level as Jehovah (1) is to apply the same faith -based double standard that we get in everything from reliance on historical books, archaeological evidence and science to human perception, logic and comparison with other religions.

A priori assumption of the reality of one particular god (though the sortagod concept is used -at need - to shoehorn it - if I may be permitted a mixed -up metaphor - onto the table) means that double standards are not only applied to the whole argument, but there is seen nothing wrong with that since they know On Faith that 'God' is real, anyway.

(1) I recently read up up on whether the Stargate System Lords tended to come from all mythologies but the Biblical one. They didn't mind offending Shinto with a Goa'uld Amaterasu, and they went as far as Sokar, who dressed up as Satan. They had a Chronos, but not a Zeus, a Baal (there was a lively debate about whether the SG1 scriptwriters would have even used him if he hadn't been used as a whipping-boy in the OT) but not a Yhwh. Using the name of the snakeheads rather than Adonai, we get....Gyuhawuhld. Awesome.
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Old 07-02-2014, 06:57 AM
 
Location: TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
The fact that a "general concept of a god" doesn't actually mean anything is a good enough reason for me.
Well thank you for being honest. You see, it all boils down to the parent's preference. If a parent tells their kid there's no god, it's because they want their child to take their preferences as their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
It is interesting in one thread you're giving god belief a pass
I'm not giving it a pass. I've said numerous times on these boards (including this thread) that I see a belief in god as illogical, just not as illogical as the belief in Santa Claus (which I see is where you're going).

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
because a general concept of god might be there, but in another you say it is necessary to nail down exactly which version of Santa people are using as an analogy to god-belief. Interesting double standard there.
There is no double standard. If we're talking about Santa Claus (proper noun), I know of no other versions than the one who delivers presents at Christmas. I also know of no text to indicate he can become invisible, whereas with "god" he/she/it is typically "everywhere" yet you cannot see it, which effectively makes it invisible. And then there are the presents. Physical, visible, tangible objects you can confirm the existence or absence of. The lack of this evidence gives one more reason not to believe in Santa Claus than to not belief in a god.

It was an analogy created in haste, I'm quite convinced, the Santa thing. Whatever atheist coined it must not have counted on someone pointing out that we're comparing a specific product with several aspects that are necessarily part of the package, with a vague concept. Unless we are comparing Santa Claus (proper noun) with Jehovah (proper noun), the analogy doesn't work.
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Old 07-02-2014, 07:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
Well thank you for being honest. You see, it all boils down to the parent's preference. If a parent tells their kid there's no god, it's because they want their child to take their preferences as their own.
Or its because they are choosing to make statements based on the state of the current evidence.

Telling a child there are no monsters under the bed is also wanting the child to take your preference as your own too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I've said numerous times on these boards (including this thread) that I see a belief in god as illogical, just not as illogical as the belief in Santa Claus (which I see is where you're going).
They are both equally illogical to me given they are both based on exactly the same amount of data. None.

If statement A has no substantiation, and statement B has exactly the same amount of no substantiation, then subscribing to either of them is equally illogical.

No need to muddy the waters or obfuscate this fact by throwing in "version" caveats at all.
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Old 07-02-2014, 07:11 AM
 
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It is a double standard, and it is one that arises through the bait and switch equivocation of switching the God -claim from a specific Biblegod (which has no more validity than Santa) to a cosmic creator - which could apply to any gods and to santa, if it was necessary.

Essentially the swindle is - Creator God is Biblegod - it cannot be any of the others. That there is no attempt to make equate Santa with sortagod is because there was no need, since nobody believes in him over the age of 7.

The case is that the personal god of the Bible and specifically, the pressies (not always wanted) that He supposedly brings us - is the one that is the subject of the analogy and agnostic creator -gods are an irrelevance, which could apply to any other god or divine being - including Santa, if necessary.

That you are atheist yourself is also a red herring. Like many another atheist you have been sold a bill of goods by Christian apologetics. In this case, the 'leap of faith' from Cosmic First -cause creator to a specific Bible -god and accepting that they are the same ...but...and this is the point ...none of the others could be because...remember that Austin atheist video ...'those others are all fairy tales'.
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Old 07-02-2014, 07:26 AM
 
Location: TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Or its because they are choosing to make statements based on the state of the current evidence.
But that's not what they said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Telling a child there are no monsters under the bed is also wanting the child to take your preference as your own too.
So they can get some sleep at night. Once again, I never said parents shouldn't indoctrinate their kids with anything, just that there should some point and purpose to it.
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Old 07-02-2014, 07:29 AM
 
Location: TX
6,491 posts, read 5,247,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
The case is that the personal god of the Bible and specifically, the pressies (not always wanted) that He supposedly brings us - is the one that is the subject of the analogy
I didn't see it specified which "god" we're referring to, in the analogy, but thank you for clarifying.
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Old 07-02-2014, 07:29 AM
 
39,235 posts, read 10,905,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
But that's not what they said...



So they can get some sleep at night. Once again, I never said parents shouldn't indoctrinate their kids with anything, just that there should some point and purpose to it.
Like telling it like it is - if the best evidence counts for more than faith. Isn't that where the thread started?
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