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Old 08-12-2014, 01:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
I don't think an afterlife would necessarily start out well then become horrific.
And yet it is something you yourself have said, given the boredom and innanity of eternity and much more. I refer once again to the Hitchens quote where he compared death to being told the great party will be going on without you but you have to leave, while eternal life is like being told the great party will be going on forever, and you CAN never leave. One of the things humans appear to hold MOST dear is their freedom and this concept of an after life, one you can never leave for all eternity, is the opposite of freedom.

You say you are going more into fantasy than is useful but I do not think you go far enough. For example you say it might get old "eventually". Even the use of the word "eventually" suggests you are not thinking about this deeply enough. We are talking about all of never ending ETERNITY here. The word "eventually" itself even loses all meaning in that context. "Eventually" in the context of "infinity" ceases to be a useful term because whatever definition you apply to "eventually".... that definition will be met infinity times over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
I see nothing unwise about that second line of thought.
And yet I do. Lots of things. The most obvious being that subscribing to concepts on absolutely no substantiation is rarely a good thing and often a bad thing. Secondly as I said the impression that we have an after life after this one inevitably has massive implications on how we will view, and conduct ourselves in, this life. And heavily influencing how you live this life in the face of data no one has the first SHRED of substantiation is true..... is very "unwise".

You act like mere "uplift" is enough. Your entire theme in all your previous recent posts on this thread have contained it. You tout this "uplift" as if it justifies the whole thing, and everything you say about it. But you do so by cherry picking the "uplift" and not considering a single consequence and side effect of it. There are multiple drugs for example that fill human beings with "uplift". Why are we not on them all the time? Because, clearly, "uplift" is not enough. The consequences, the prices we pay, the side effects, the implications and more of attaining that "uplift" give us the full "Cost/Benefit" analysis. You focused on one perceived and imagined "benefit" and do so in isolation of any of the costs. This is not useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
I don't understand what you don't understand about life having value because of "experience of fun."
My not agreeing with your point does not equate to me not understanding it. It is you failing to understand the concept of begging the question. I asked you what gave life meaning and value. Rather than answer this you merely broke "life" down into constituent parts and asserted THEY have meaning and value. So you simply have not answered the question.... just restated it as if the restatement of the question was the answer. It is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
I don't think rarity and transience of life are part of its value...
Yet I do. But again you are dodging the question. Rather than answer what gives life value, you are simply dismissing things that you declare do NOT do so. The universe is full of rock for example. What gives life value and not rock? Why do we view life as more valuable to us than rock? Lets have you stop walking around the question and actually answer it for once shall we?

As I said.... why do people get filled with horror at the idea of being entirely cloned? Or being forced into conformity and social cloning in places like North Korea. You dodged these questions too by simply declaring they would not bother YOU to be cloned. I did not ask if it would bother YOU. I asked why it bothers most people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
Your analogy is still irrational.
Nope. It still stands unassailed. Much less by you.
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:53 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,413 posts, read 2,992,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
And yet it is something you yourself have said, given the boredom and innanity of eternity and much more. I refer once again to the Hitchens quote where he compared death to being told the great party will be going on without you but you have to leave, while eternal life is like being told the great party will be going on forever, and you CAN never leave. One of the things humans appear to hold MOST dear is their freedom and this concept of an after life, one you can never leave for all eternity, is the opposite of freedom.

You say you are going more into fantasy than is useful but I do not think you go far enough. For example you say it might get old "eventually". Even the use of the word "eventually" suggests you are not thinking about this deeply enough. We are talking about all of never ending ETERNITY here. The word "eventually" itself even loses all meaning in that context. "Eventually" in the context of "infinity" ceases to be a useful term because whatever definition you apply to "eventually".... that definition will be met infinity times over.
But's that's your view of an afterlife...not the view of an afterlife, and I have no idea why it would even be a common view of an afterlife. Maybe they can end their afterlife. I don't know. You keep twisting a view of an afterlife into your view of how someone should think of an afterlife. I complained about this before.




Quote:
My not agreeing with your point does not equate to me not understanding it. It is you failing to understand the concept of begging the question. I asked you what gave life meaning and value. Rather than answer this you merely broke "life" down into constituent parts and asserted THEY have meaning and value. So you simply have not answered the question.... just restated it as if the restatement of the question was the answer. It is not.
Nonsense. I explained what gave life value. You have not explained why I am wrong if I say something like "life has value because of positive emotional stimuli."

Quote:
Yet I do. But again you are dodging the question. Rather than answer what gives life value, you are simply dismissing things that you declare do NOT do so. The universe is full of rock for example. What gives life value and not rock? Why do we view life as more valuable to us than rock? Lets have you stop walking around the question and actually answer it for once shall we?
the rock doesn't have feelings...Nozz.

Quote:
As I said.... why do people get filled with horror at the idea of being entirely cloned? Or being forced into conformity and social cloning in places like North Korea. You dodged these questions too by simply declaring they would not bother YOU to be cloned. I did not ask if it would bother YOU. I asked why it bothers most people?
People would fear cloning because it would be inconvenient. We can't have two people with the same bank account or things would get confusing. They fear being forced into social conformity because they want to experience a sense of individuality. I have no idea what that has to do with anything though.

Quote:
Nope. It still stands unassailed. Much less by you.
Just assume I think I've utterly destroyed it many times over unless I specifically state otherwise.
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Old 08-12-2014, 02:00 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,290,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
But's that's your view of an afterlife...not the view of an afterlife.
No, I do not have a view on the after life other than that there is absolutely ZERO arguments, evidence, data and reasoning on offer at this time to even begin to suggest such a thing exists.

What I am giving is my view of the implications of what most people (actually all so far) describe to me what they think an after life entails.

The only one twisting views of after lives therefore are the people who actually think such a thing exists. I am merely commenting on the implications of the things they purport to believe in. So take it up with them, not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
Nonsense.
So nice of you to pre-describe your comment so accurately. Because no, you did not explain what gave value life. You merely listed attributes of life and asserted THEY have value. This is, once again, "begging the question".

If you assert X has value and I ask why.... you can not answer that question by merely breaking X into Y and Z and asserting they have value. You are just making the same assertion but with different linguistics. You declare that the rock has "feelings" but why does this answer the question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
Just assume I think I've utterly destroyed it many times over unless I specifically state otherwise.
That you are operating under that assumption is abundantly clear. I warrant your need to point this out multiple times is just filler coupled with pointless posturing. But assumption is exactly what it is, has been, and continues to remain. Because no such thing has occurred out here in the reality outside your fantasy in this regard.
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Old 08-12-2014, 02:05 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,413 posts, read 2,992,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
No, I do not have a view on the after life other than that there is absolutely ZERO arguments, evidence, data and reasoning on offer at this time to even begin to suggest such a thing exists.

What I am giving is my view of the implications of what most people (actually all so far) describe to me what they think an after life entails.

The only one twisting views of after lives therefore are the people who actually think such a thing exists. I am merely commenting on the implications of the things they purport to believe in. So take it up with them, not me.
If they haven't said they'd view it as miserable...you're twisting things.

Quote:
So nice of you to pre-describe your comment so accurately. Because no, you did not explain what gave value life. You merely listed attributes of life and asserted THEY have value. This is, once again, "begging the question".

If you assert X has value and I ask why.... you can not answer that question by merely breaking X into Y and Z and asserting they have value. You are just making the same assertion but with different linguistics. You declare that the rock has "feelings" but why does this answer the question?
unintelligible jibberjabber.

Quote:
That you are operating under that assumption is abundantly clear. I warrant your need to point this out multiple times is just filler coupled with pointless posturing. But assumption is exactly what it is, has been, and continues to remain. Because no such thing has occurred out here in the reality outside your fantasy in this regard.
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Old 08-12-2014, 02:07 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,290,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
If they haven't said they'd view it as miserable...you're twisting things.
No. I am doing no such thing. I am discussing the implications of what they describe. They do not have to say that this is their view for me to do so. Again.... take it up with them not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
unintelligible jibberjabber.
So you have chosen to return to empty throw away one liners rather than reply to the content of my post. You did this before, you are returning to it now. It is not big, it is not clever.
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Old 08-12-2014, 02:33 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
No. I am doing no such thing. I am discussing the implications of what they describe. They do not have to say that this is their view for me to do so. Again.... take it up with them not me.



So you have chosen to return to empty throw away one liners rather than reply to the content of my post. You did this before, you are returning to it now. It is not big, it is not clever.
I'm officially lost. I'm starting over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Except it is not. It is the perfect analogy. The point being that you either have a temporary transient life that will come to an end.... or you will live forever. If it is the latter then the value of life itself is eroded because it is an infinite resource. And the value of this life here and now on Earth, compared to this eternal life, is insignificant and meaningless and empty.

And if life is an eternal resource, what value does it have? If gold was as readily available as water, what value would it have?

The point being that you either have a temporary transient life that will come to an end.... or you will live forever.
That is true

If it is the latter then the value of life itself is eroded because it is an infinite resource.
The value of life would not be eroded merely because of being an infinite resource. We need some sort of emotional negative that stems from an infinite amount of life for an infinite amount of life to erode.

That negative value could be eventual boredom. However, if there were no eventual boredom...then that would remove a major source of dissatisfaction.


Here was your originally stated analogy:
Why is gold precious? It is precious because it is rare. If you could multiply the quantity of gold on this planet 100,000 times bigger over night it would lose most of its value.

The flaw in that analogy is it implies that an afterlife loses value because it is infinite rather than other factors, such as boredom.
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Old 08-12-2014, 04:09 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,290,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
I'm officially lost. I'm starting over.
For some time now I feel but recognizing a problem is certainly the first step in rectifying a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
The point being that you either have a temporary transient life that will come to an end.... or you will live forever. That is true
I know. That is why I said it. I likely would have not said it were it not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
The value of life would not be eroded merely because of being an infinite resource.
Except it is. The example I keep giving you is when a human gives his life for a person, place or ideal. We laud praise on such people for their sacrifice because of the sheer value of what they gave up. Basically they gave up all of everything they had.

However if they did no such thing, but merely gave up one piece of an infinite resource.... then where is the value of their sacrifice? It would be akin to a multi billionaire giving the only 5 dollars in his pocket to a beggar.... all the while secure in the knowledge he has a relatively limitless supply of it banked away.

AGAIN.... where is the value of the sacrifice of ones life if one is not actually sacrificing ones life at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
The flaw in that analogy is it implies that an afterlife loses value because it is infinite rather than other factors, such as boredom.
That is not a flaw that is the central point of it. Read above.
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Old 08-12-2014, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,413 posts, read 2,992,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
I'm officially lost. I'm starting over.




The point being that you either have a temporary transient life that will come to an end.... or you will live forever.
That is true

If it is the latter then the value of life itself is eroded because it is an infinite resource.
The value of life would not be eroded merely because of being an infinite resource. We need some sort of emotional negative that stems from an infinite amount of life for an infinite amount of life to erode.

That negative value could be eventual boredom. However, if there were no eventual boredom...then that would remove a major source of dissatisfaction.


Here was your originally stated analogy:
Why is gold precious? It is precious because it is rare. If you could multiply the quantity of gold on this planet 100,000 times bigger over night it would lose most of its value.

The flaw in that analogy is it implies that an afterlife loses value because it is infinite rather than other factors, such as boredom.
and to continue with this...an afterlife might not be boring. If we look at this through the lens of reality...I have no idea what the heck an afterlife would be like. If we view the afterlife as a fantasy...why would anyone fantasize about a boring, hellish eternal afterlife?

So...in most instances the analogy doesn't work.
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Old 08-12-2014, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,413 posts, read 2,992,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
For some time now I feel but recognizing a problem is certainly the first step in rectifying a problem.



I know. That is why I said it. I likely would have not said it were it not true.



Except it is. The example I keep giving you is when a human gives his life for a person, place or ideal. We laud praise on such people for their sacrifice because of the sheer value of what they gave up. Basically they gave up all of everything they had.

However if they did no such thing, but merely gave up one piece of an infinite resource.... then where is the value of their sacrifice? It would be akin to a multi billionaire giving the only 5 dollars in his pocket to a beggar.... all the while secure in the knowledge he has a relatively limitless supply of it banked away.

AGAIN.... where is the value of the sacrifice of ones life if one is not actually sacrificing ones life at all?



That is not a flaw that is the central point of it. Read above.
The value of the sacrifice depends on some factors:

If the afterlife were real...the value of the sacrifice would depend on the type of afterlife/what both people are leaving behind and a few other factors.

If the afterlife were not real a belief in an afterlife would decrease the value of this life in the eyes of the believer without obvious benefit. However, I have no idea what this has to do with your analogy. Your analogy seemed to focus on your views on why nobody should want an afterlife. You have failed to show a reason why people should not want their perceived afterlife.

Last edited by Clintone; 08-12-2014 at 06:08 AM..
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Old 08-12-2014, 05:58 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,290,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
an afterlife might not be boring
That is a big "might" so while admonishing me for engaging in fantasy where I did not.... you are engaging in quite a bit of it yourself. Further you might want to look into what causes boredom and then refer back to my previous post where I indicated you might not actually be understanding the full force of words like "Infinity" and "eternity". Because given an infinite amount of time.... all things that can happen will happen..... including getting bored with whatever is going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
why would anyone fantasize about a boring, hellish eternal afterlife?
As I suggested earlier I do not think they think about it enough at all to come to any conclusion about it. They just have a cursory purported belief that there is one and it is pleasant... but their thinking appears to stop right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
So...in most instances the analogy doesn't work.
No analogy works in "most instances". What matters is that it works in the instance it was used in and for what it was intended. Which mine does perfectly well thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
The value of the sacrifice depends on some factors
Yes and one of those factors is that you lose something otherwise you have given or sacrificed nothing. How can one sacrifice something without sacrificing anything? Let us at least TRY and make some sense here shall we?

And if you give a piece of life out of an infinite supply.... then you have sacrificed _nothing_. Which has been my point all along.
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