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Old 05-05-2014, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,195 posts, read 9,080,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly4u View Post
When my youngest was about 8 years old, he would play with a neighbors kids, they were all about the same age. Anyway, he asked me once if he could go to church with these kids. I said no. I told him when he graduates high school he can go to any church he wants.
My stepchildren were allowed to explore religion or not as they saw fit. The son never cared for it, the daughter was drawn to it. In retrospect I think her interest was mainly social, and to please her biological father. Eventually, in her teens, she scandalized the Presbyterian church she attended by concluding in her closing presentation to catechism class that there is no god. After all, they claimed at the beginning of the class that they were to look at the evidence and draw their own conclusions ;-)

Often the best tool to turn someone off to religion is actually studying the scriptures with an open mind.

I can see an argument for considering an 8 year old too young for that sort of thing, especially if the invitation was to a fundamentalist church. They can get coerced into the faith through hellthreat, etc. But I have no particular issue with them going to a milder, more liberal church provided the child has a real interest in exploring religion. I think you have to strike a balance between coming off as afraid of / threatened by religion, and just abrogating your parental rights and responsibilities. I think kids are born unbelievers and the key is not to protect them from religion as such but to cultivate a freethinking mindset that will inoculate them against it. My wife was raised that way. She never saw the point. Religion just baffles and confuses her. What on earth is it good for? She has no idea.
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Old 05-05-2014, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Texas
43,552 posts, read 52,647,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSD610 View Post
If you seriously think that is a form of abuse you have never had any first hand experience with abuse or those who have actually been abused.
You don't think being brainwashed and indoctrinated at a young age is kind of abusive? Especially with many churches/temples (of various religions) threatening you with all sorts of damnation, etc, if you don't fall in line?

I really appreciate the fact that I was allowed to come to religion in my own time and with my own exploration as a child, young adult, and adult. Many of the people I know who were forcefed stuff are kind of angry and backlashy about it. There is definitely potential for some fall-out - it is not a thoroughly benign experience.
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Old 05-05-2014, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Texas
43,552 posts, read 52,647,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
Wow, how sad.

I suppose you intend to followup with a conversation about no Santa, Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy either?

I mean, after all, you said you don't want to continue to "betray" your son
Yeah, my parents may have tried to play those and I never really believed in them.
That didn't make it any less fun to play along.
There is plenty of magic in childhood without having to believe in mythical nonsense.
Sometimes the magic is just the love and excitement and what these things represent.
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Old 05-05-2014, 07:08 PM
 
40,053 posts, read 26,730,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
Wow, how sad.
I suppose you intend to followup with a conversation about no Santa, Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy either?
I mean, after all, you said you don't want to continue to "betray" your son
He already did. Parents are pretty much a crap shoot or lottery. Some children get the ones who want their children to grow up and accept reality sooner than others. Since they have an entire lifetime to have to deal with raw reality . . . I preferred to extend my daughters' childhoods (and the magical wonder and joy that exists) until reality invariably hit them from other venues. YMMV.
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Old 05-05-2014, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
45,269 posts, read 88,525,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
He already did. Parents are pretty much a crap shoot or lottery. Some children get the ones who want their children to grow up and accept reality sooner than others. Since they have an entire lifetime to have to deal with raw reality . . . I preferred to extend my daughters' childhoods (and the magical wonder and joy that exists) until reality invariably hit them from other venues. YMMV.
You and me both.

I'm all about age appropriateness myself.

Childhood is short enough as it is, let your kids enjoy it without forcing them to grow up too quickly.
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Texas
43,552 posts, read 52,647,623 times
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Why is magical wonder/joy = pack of stupid lies?

How about fireflies on a dark summer night? Shapes in the clouds. Using a piece of grass to make a whistle? Watching coral come alive when the sun goes Dow? Swimming with rays? Watching the roly poly roll up when you touch it (and also that plant where the leaves close...LOVED that as a kid)? Helicoptering through the grand canyon?

It does not have to be a bunch of hooey. You know the whole world doesn't do this to their kids...there are entire cultures and civilizations that don't do Santa...that make them bad parents?
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:38 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,279,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
Wow, how sad.

I suppose you intend to followup with a conversation about no Santa, Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy either?
No reason why not. A lot of people chose to engage in the Santa myths of their own volition. But many other people act like it is some how incumbent upon parents to do so. That somehow NOT lying to your child and perpetuating the Santa myth is tantamount to being a failure as a parent or denying something to your child that is somehow their right.

Even the tone of your question suggests you think that such a follow up conversation is somehow "wrong".

Certainly what your post does show is that you leapt right in to reply without even really bothering to read the post you were replying to past maybe the Thread Title. Why, for example, would he have a "follow up conversation" about how there is no Santa when his post clearly says he has already had that conversation with the child? Did not bother to read that bit though did you in your rush to get haughty about the thread subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
Childhood is short enough as it is, let your kids enjoy it without forcing them to grow up too quickly.
You make it sound like failing to perpetuate lies and myths somehow precludes what you recommend above. One is perfectly capable of doing both. Failing to tell your child lies, and slowly but steadily equipping your child for rationality and immunity against lies and woo thinking... in no way precludes fostering a long, happy childhood full of awe, wonder and enjoyment of their youth.
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Old 05-06-2014, 01:49 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
3,067 posts, read 2,107,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Why is magical wonder/joy = pack of stupid lies?

How about fireflies on a dark summer night? Shapes in the clouds. Using a piece of grass to make a whistle? Watching coral come alive when the sun goes Dow? Swimming with rays? Watching the roly poly roll up when you touch it (and also that plant where the leaves close...LOVED that as a kid)? Helicoptering through the grand canyon?

It does not have to be a bunch of hooey. You know the whole world doesn't do this to their kids...there are entire cultures and civilizations that don't do Santa...that make them bad parents?
Those other cultures might not do Santa, but they surely do religion or traditional cultural myths of some sort. There is no society in existence entirely devoted to the pursuit of fostering the development of the most rational progeny that is possible to produce. I'd submit that kids need some level of "brainwashing" even if it be of the secular variety (Santa, tooth fairy, et al), because reality in and of itself is ugly. You see the pretty fireflies and the coral, I see "nature red in tooth and claw". That's about what I ever see. I don't project my own views on others, but if others were to be brought up with the most rational worldview possible, would they be the better for it? I doubt it.
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Old 05-06-2014, 01:52 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,279,657 times
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My doubts however are not as pessimistic as yours. You present "pretty fireflies and coral" and "Red in tooth and claw" as being almost polar opposites on the optimism scale by default. I however see them as being on the same point of the scale. I see no less beauty in the process of "red claw" evolution than I do in the majestic tree outside my window right now.

You may be in danger of extrapolating an impression of such a rational society from little more than your OWN inherent pessimism. A pessimism I thankfully see little reason to think is shared widely enough to be feared in such a society. I have more faith in humanity and its ability to find joy in life than that.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:35 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
3,067 posts, read 2,107,384 times
Reputation: 3965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I see no less beauty in the process of "red claw" evolution than I do in the majestic tree outside my window right now.
You're insane. Optimism bias is built into this species; this point is well-established by now. I wish you the best of luck in your remaining time on this planet to overcome that bias. The rewards are minimal, perhaps non-existent, but I wish you luck nonetheless.
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