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Old 05-07-2014, 01:32 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
3,067 posts, read 2,110,588 times
Reputation: 3965

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
The reality is the majority of atheists are very aware of the harsh reality.... and they operate perfectly well and perfectly happy in the light of it.

So you are ruminating on how you feel the reality should be without parsing this through the actual reality around you and noting the disparity that belies the failure in your ruminations.
No. I'm ruminating (far too much) on the reality around me, and also on the lack of the ability of my fellow atheists to do the same. I'm friends with plenty of atheists who are as you describe--garden variety humans. They have their atheist cake and eat their optimism too. Makes no sense to me, nor should it. You reject god, you reject teleology. You reject teleology, you look at the world for what it is--a nihilistic quagmire of competing physical forces and biological self-interests which is governed by nothing but physics. That to me is the essence of dystopia. The problem (from my perspective) is that the average atheist is almost as thoughtless as the average theist.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:50 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,283,771 times
Reputation: 2973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
No. I'm ruminating (far too much) on the reality around me, and also on the lack of the ability of my fellow atheists to do the same.
The the reality around you shows that the vast majority are able to find meaning and joy in life despite the lack of objective grounding for this. Your inability to do so places you in a vast minority. Rather than, therefore, arrogantly asserting you have a superior view of the world than other atheists when there is no substantiation for such an assessment whatsoever... consider other avenues of exploration such as the possibility you suffer from medical depression.... or the possibility your view of the world is not superior but inferior and your ability to parse reality is not as good as you tout it to be.

Maybe do some reading on the Downing effect. Illusory superiority is a cognitive bias that causes people to overestimate their positive qualities and abilities and to underestimate their negative qualities, relative to others. That is to say that while you type "I think I see the world better than anyone" perhaps the EXACT opposite is true and perhaps you are too willing to declare other people "thoughtless" for no other reason than their conclusions differ from your own. Differing conclusions is no indicator that anyone has thought about these things any less (or more) than you yourself have.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:57 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
3,067 posts, read 2,110,588 times
Reputation: 3965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
The the reality around you shows that the vast majority are able to find meaning and joy in life despite the lack of objective grounding for this. Your inability to do so places you in a vast minority. Rather than, therefore, arrogantly asserting you have a superior view of the world than other atheists when there is no substantiation for such an assessment whatsoever... consider other avenues of exploration such as the possibility you suffer from medical depression.... or the possibility your view of the world is not superior but inferior and your ability to parse reality is not as good as you tout it to be.

Maybe do some reading on the Downing effect. Illusory superiority is a cognitive bias that causes people to overestimate their positive qualities and abilities and to underestimate their negative qualities, relative to others. That is to say that while you type "I think I see the world better than anyone" perhaps the EXACT opposite is true and perhaps you are too willing to declare other people "thoughtless" for no other reason than their conclusions differ from your own. Differing conclusions is no indicator that anyone has thought about these things any less (or more) than you yourself have.
There's illusory superiority, of which I observe to be quite common, and then there's actual superiority. Most any iconoclast is at some point accused of the former only to eventually be considered to be the latter. Perhaps both concepts are actually illusory--I'd concede that much. "Superiority" however (at least in intellectual pursuits) is typically borne out by objective means. I actually act quite humbly in daily life as I am aware of my considerable limitations. Abstract reasoning relative to the rest of the species isn't necessarily one of my limitations.

Your argument reduces to an argumentum ad populum, or an appeal to the masses, which is a fallacy.

Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 05-07-2014 at 02:05 AM..
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Old 05-07-2014, 03:08 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,283,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
There's illusory superiority, of which I observe to be quite common, and then there's actual superiority.
And speaking as an external observer of yourself and your posts, I can only conclude on the evidence available that it is more the former than the latter. You clearly think it the opposite. Neither is important, nor on topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
Your argument reduces to an argumentum ad populum, or an appeal to the masses, which is a fallacy.
There is no such thing within my post. The fact is that you are asserting a "should" in post #59 and I am merely asking whether there is any substantiation that this "should" carries in reality.... especially given the reality does not appear to match your ruminations on the subject.

And aside from posturing yourself as feeling yourself to be superior I am not seeing any attempt to support the assertion on your part.
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:15 AM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,967 posts, read 6,505,369 times
Reputation: 44369
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
You don't think being brainwashed and indoctrinated at a young age is kind of abusive? Especially with many churches/temples (of various religions) threatening you with all sorts of damnation, etc, if you don't fall in line?

I really appreciate the fact that I was allowed to come to religion in my own time and with my own exploration as a child, young adult, and adult. Many of the people I know who were forcefed stuff are kind of angry and backlashy about it. There is definitely potential for some fall-out - it is not a thoroughly benign experience.
You just described a major portion of my miserable childhood which included physical abuse from my religious father.

Last edited by John13; 05-07-2014 at 04:47 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:20 AM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,967 posts, read 6,505,369 times
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Quote:
Long story short, did I just mess up??
Where you messed up was not protesting the baptism. The process as well as the indoctrination is child abuse.

You son is now counted as one of them. It's amazing to me that you are okay with that.

Last edited by John13; 05-07-2014 at 04:49 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 05-07-2014, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,091,096 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
I'm ruminating (far too much) on the reality around me, and also on the lack of the ability of my fellow atheists to do the same. I'm friends with plenty of atheists who are as you describe--garden variety humans. They have their atheist cake and eat their optimism too. Makes no sense to me, nor should it. You reject god, you reject teleology. You reject teleology, you look at the world for what it is--a nihilistic quagmire of competing physical forces and biological self-interests which is governed by nothing but physics. That to me is the essence of dystopia.
I will grant you that my reality is quite dystopian compared to what it was when I was a theist. I have, in effect, become what I once despised, on top of all that. However, I recognize that this "blasted heath" in which I now live is basically a product of a lifetime of programming which set my expectations in a totally unrealistic fashion. It took the better part of four decades to build that thought construct and I am not surprised that I haven't entirely disassembled it in the ensuing decade and a half.

There is nothing objectively wrong with there being no god and I don't see rejecting god as a total rejection of teleology, particularly intrinsic finality. Anyone can decide to be happy for its own sake, to do a thing for its own sake, and derive considerable pleasure therefrom. I just finished writing a complex query that solved a problem for my customer and I enjoyed doing it. The query will be long forgotten by everyone including me inside of ten years, I'd wager, but I enjoyed doing it nevertheless. I'm not going to allow the fact that there is no ultimate meaning to that action to take that pleasure away from me. (Or the $$)!

As Nozz points out there are lots of atheists who do not have angst and I would make two points about that. One, it is not in every case because they don't think deeply about anything, and two, so what if they don't think deeply, as long as it works for them. It doesn't work for you (or me) to not bring awareness to existential issues because -- well I can only speak for myself, if I don't ponder these things out they will eat away at my insides eventually. But not everyone cares to or needs to, and that's fine, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
The problem (from my perspective) is that the average atheist is almost as thoughtless as the average theist.
I don't buy that, on the basis that even a "natural" atheist (one who is not a deconvert) has to work against a cultural bias to not be sucked into religion. Everything in the social environment makes belief in god the easy choice to go along and get along. There are of course atheists who just are incurious about metaphysics (my wife is one of them) and prefer to investigate other things, but most unbelievers I've encountered think about the great questions a great deal, because they need a rationale to navigate a world that wants to filter everything through theistic ideations.
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Old 05-08-2014, 01:11 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,846 posts, read 3,358,289 times
Reputation: 4055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
and I think I see the world better than anyone, atheist or not.
Well, hmm ... in that sense, I guess you stole from me any reason to have any sort of meaningful discussion with you. I will now forever envision you reading what I say with a bemused chuckle and a condescending pat on the head, the kind of pat a child receives after saying something incredibly stupid yet still mildly entertaining for the wisened adult who knows best.

Plus I suddenly feel like I'm one of the Goth kids from South Park.

"Life is pain." *flicks hair out of her face*
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Old 05-08-2014, 06:18 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,091,096 times
Reputation: 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Well, hmm ... in that sense, I guess you stole from me any reason to have any sort of meaningful discussion with you. I will now forever envision you reading what I say with a bemused chuckle and a condescending pat on the head, the kind of pat a child receives after saying something incredibly stupid yet still mildly entertaining for the wisened adult who knows best.

Plus I suddenly feel like I'm one of the Goth kids from South Park.

"Life is pain." *flicks hair out of her face*
I see Matt more as a disciple of Satre, sitting in a cafe on the Left Bank in Paris, a beret on his head and a cigarette in his mouth -- saying things like, "life iz meaningless". I get it. Sometimes that's me, too, but then I remember that there are baguettes, confiture and great Cafe Crème in front of me and I go with, "ze meaning of life iz bread and coffee".
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Old 05-08-2014, 06:29 AM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
4,889 posts, read 3,978,050 times
Reputation: 4138
[quote=Drover;34642945


I'd rather send my kid(s) to parochial school than have them grow up believing this pompous bulls*#t. If you're aiming to set your son up to be despised by his peers, this is an excellent way to do it.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I am setting him up to attend MIT or Georgetown. Who knows, some day my son may invent the next cure for cancer of find a way to terraform Mars for human habitation.

All this while your kids are praying and grovelling "Oh please god help us"

I am teaching my kids to work and make a difference in the world, to do good with their pompous BS....what good are you teaching your kids at a parochial school?
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